Tech Sales is for Hustlers Podcast

Campus Series: Bonnie Guy – Becoming a Sales Mastermind

Guest-At-A-Glance

Name: Bonnie Guy

What she does: Bonnie is the Director of the Professional Selling Program at Appalachian State University.

Company/Institution: Appalachian State University

Noteworthy: Bonnie has received many significant teaching awards throughout her prosperous professional career in sales and marketing.

Where to find Bonnie: LinkedIn

Key Insights

⚡ You don’t have to be a born salesperson to be in sales. Bonnie believes that anyone can find their place in sales, whether or not they have any innate sales skills. “Sales is a process, much like other professional processes, and you don’t have to be a born salesperson. Certainly, some people have traits or characteristics that come naturally to them and make sales ramp up easier or quicker, but pretty much anybody who wants to put the work into it can develop effective selling skills.”

⚡ Never waste a good failure. According to Bonnie, failure plays a vital role in any salesperson’s journey, and it shouldn’t be seen as something bad. “I tell my students all the time, ‘Never waste a good failure. You already failed.’ […] But it’s hard for students. […] Students care a lot about grades. I’m glad they do. But sometimes, I want them to equally care about learning. I’ve failed a lot, and I’m sure I’ll continue to do that until I’m dead. But it’s also a part of the foundation of what drives your success.”

⚡ Sales is everywhere. Bonnie suggests that students shouldn’t stay away from sales because, even if they seek opportunities in other fields, sales can be a good starting point that helps them make connections and get to know their customers. “Sales is the entry portal, and that is why it’s a good launching pad, and it’s hard. But you learn about yourself. You learn about other people, and you learn about communication. […] It’s a great place to develop yourself, and it can lead anywhere.”

Episode Highlights

Who is Bonnie Guy?

“I was born in Buffalo, New York. I grew up in Nashville, Tennessee. I did a Ph.D. at the University of Nebraska. When I was 18 years old, I got my real estate license and began selling real estate largely because my dad was in that business. After graduation from Middle Tennessee State, I started a small advertising promotions business with my boyfriend’s brother. […] I’ve been teaching at Appalachian since the Dead Sea was only sick but, January of 1987 with three years out from 2002 to 2005, I was doing a business startup, franchise coaching, and things like that. Since then, I’ve been back here, and we’ve put our sales program together, and we’re having a lot of fun.”

Students are More Interested in Sales Now Than 10 Years Ago

“Over the last 10, 15, 20 years, the number of students who are interested in and willing to explore an entry-level sales position, if not a sales-related career, has grown tremendously. I would attribute that not only to having a more formalized sales program but the number of opportunities out there and basic change in the perception that young people have about what sales are and whether or not they could be successful doing it.

They [Students] see their peers getting very attractive entry-level positions, training, mentorship, getting early career promotion, and building books of business. They get to practice that level a little bit while they’re here [sales program]. And while that certainly involves some stumbling and failure, they begin to see that sales aren’t just an art. It’s a process.”

Sales is a Big Umbrella

“Students often have a very limited view of sales. They think sales is just one thing, and sale is a big umbrella. Two people who have sales jobs can be doing entirely different things every day — inside, outside, travel, no travel, and things like that — with different people.

Sales are very different. If you don’t like one kind of sales, you may like another. And you don’t have to be a born salesperson. You don’t have to think that that’s what you were going to go into. […] In our professional selling class, students have to get a sales mentor for the semester. They do a very involved, applied project. They get a mentor. They take some piece of that mentor, product, or service mix, and they dig deep and learn about it. […] They do a 15-minute sales role play based on everything they did all semester long on that. So, those are a few of the things that help students understand what sales are and whether or not they might like to do that.”

You’re the One Who Has to Live Your Life

“‘I have a job offer here, here, and here. Which one should I take?’ I say, ‘I can’t tell you that. You’re the one who has to live your life.’

There are two important questions to ask when you’re thinking about going to work for any company. The first is, ‘Is it a good company? Does it match your values? Does it have some stability? Is the product decent? How does it stand up to competition, and do they treat their employees well?’

If you say ‘Yes,’ the next most important question is, ‘Is it a good company for me?’ Because your dream job can be somebody else’s nightmare job. Whether entrepreneurial or corporate, I tell them to look at a few things – training, support, mentoring, growth opportunities, and what are one or more paths you could take from there? And I encourage them to think about what they want to do each day, what kind of people they want to work with, and what they want their lifestyle to look like, both professionally and in the big picture.”

Outcomes are More Important Than Awards

“Last year I won a few teaching awards, […] but the outcomes are more important to me. […] The teaching awards are great. They’re nice accolades. I won’t lie about that. And when they come with money, that’s nice too. But those kinds of things tell me that all the time I put into the good and the frustrations made an impact on something and made a difference. Then I say, ‘I guess it’s all worthwhile.'”

Transcript:

[00:00:22] Kristen Wisdorf: Welcome back hustlers to another edition. I am your host, Kristen Wisdorf. I also have Libby Galatis joining me today.

[00:01:16] Libby Galatis: Hello, hustlers. Excited to be here.

[00:01:18] Kristen Wisdorf: Today. We’re super excited. We have Bonnie Guy joining us, who’s the Director of the Sales Program at Appalachian State. Welcome, Bonnie. 

[00:01:28] Bonnie Guy: Thank you. Good morning. 

[00:01:29] Kristen Wisdorf: We’re super excited to have you today and pick your brain. I know you’ve been at App state for a long time, working with sales and marketing, so you have probably seen a lot of students and a lot of different career paths that your students decide to take.

[00:01:43] So you’ve got a lot of good knowledge for us. We like to start these episodes the same way we start our interviews, believe it or not, but it’s definitely pretty easy for you. Why don’t you take, let’s say 60 seconds, and tell us about you? Give us your highlight reel. 

[00:01:59] Bonnie Guy: Well, I was originally born in Buffalo, New York, grew up in Nashville, Tennessee. Did a Ph.D. at the University of Nebraska. When I was 18 years old, I got my real estate license and began selling real estate, largely because my dad was in that business. After graduation from middle, Tennessee state started a small advertising promotions business with my boyfriend’s brother.

[00:02:27] So that was, a different kind of sales. I’ve been teaching at Appalachian since the dead sea was only sick, really, but, January of 1987 with three years out, from 2002 to 2005, doing a business startup, franchise, coaching, things like that. Since then I’ve been back here and we’ve put our sales program together and we’re having a lot of fun.

[00:02:54] Kristen Wisdorf: That is really exciting. You’ve kind of lived all over, from New York to Tennessee, Nebraska even. Why did you settle on App state? What about App state made it home for you? 

[00:03:07] Bonnie Guy: Well, in hindsight, I can tell you a lot of great things about Appalachian that would be reasons to do that, but the primary reason was I was then long-distance dating my husband who taught at Appalachian State in the Management Department, so the strategy was to see if I can get a job here and then if not we figure out whatever else we were going to do together.

[00:03:28] But it was also a way to get back closer to my family, which was still in middle Tennessee, and it’s a beautiful area, great grade school.

[00:03:37] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s amazing. And, you’ve probably seen the business school marketing and especially the sales program change in the time that you’ve been there. When you look back on kind of all the changes in the number of years you’ve been there, what is the most, I guess, what’s the biggest change for when you think about students and the classes and teaching sales today than it was even 15, 20 years ago? 

[00:04:01] Bonnie Guy: That’s a great question. At least here, I’m sure this isn’t true everywhere, but I would guess, over the last 10, 15, 20 years, the number of students who are interested in and willing to explore, at least an entry-level sales position, if not a sales-related career, has grown tremendously.

[00:04:22] I would attribute that only to our, having a more formalized sales program, but just the number of opportunities out there, and I think a basic change in the perception that young people have about what sales are or what it has to be and their sort of perception about whether or not they could be successful doing it.

[00:04:45] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s actually a really good point. I mean, I went to a sales program school, and even, what was it, 10 or so years ago, not quite, it was just getting started and the sales program was making pushes on campus to, kind of like, re-educate people on what sales really is, and I know you and all the other professors we have to join us on the podcast,

[00:05:06] that’s really what you’re doing is you’re educating students on what sales really is and what professional selling can be. But I like that you mentioned that people, students are feeling like they can actually be successful in it, so it’s not just that industry and the profession have changed, but they feel confident actually making that part of their career.

[00:05:27] Like, why do you think that is? Is it because they’re more familiar with it? Is it because you bring different companies in to talk to students, like, what is adding to their confidence these days?

[00:05:38] Bonnie Guy: Well, I think it’s all of that. Some of that is increasing though they know alumni who have gone in that direction. We bring a lot of alumni back. Certainly, we’re not exclusive to alumni, there are a lot of successful salespeople and organizations out there that we’d love to bring on campus, but I think they see their slightly older peers getting into that

[00:06:02] and while, I think realistically, or at least intellectually somewhere, they realize it’s going to be a grind for a while. I don’t think you ever really understand that until you get into it, but they do. They see their peers, getting very attractive entry-level positions, getting training and mentorship, getting early career promotions,

[00:06:24] building books of business, things like that. And, I think in combination is more professional selling classes, so very, very applied in hands-on, that’s no different than Stephanie’s program or any anybody else’s, but they get to practice that level, uh, a little bit while they’re here.

[00:06:44] And, while that certainly involves some stumbling and failure, they begin to see that sales aren’t just in art. It’s a process. So, certainly, there’s art for that, EQ side, the human side of that, but the sales is a process, much like other professional processes. And, you don’t have to be a born salesperson.

[00:07:07] Certainly some people have traits or characteristics that are come naturally to them that may make sales ramp up, easier, or quicker, but pretty much anybody who wants to put the work into it can develop effective selling skills. 

[00:07:22] Libby Galatis: I think that’s a really great point. Well, taking a step back, what you mentioned about the students connecting with alumni who go into the profession in that kind of piquing their interest, this element of, like, herd effect, where if they see other people doing it, you know, a lot of students feel more drawn to it, but

[00:07:38] if the collective is moving towards one space, that concept of FOMO exists. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that term before, fear of missing out, and, I think that’s just an excellent point as a profession grows naturally it’s becoming a lot more popular across the country. 

[00:07:52] Bonnie Guy: The other thing that my students see, who are not in sales, see a lot of their peers getting one to four job offers before they even graduate. Nice job, in terms of compensation, and there are other things we’ve talked about. I know from my students that their peers go, “How did you do that?” Like, “What would I get that.”

[00:08:13] And so, it’s not even just the alumni, it’s, like, their peers, they go, “That’s a great job, and you’re moving out from your parent’s basement, and so how do you do that? What would I do to do that?” So it’s alumni, but it’s also some of our students here that are in the program and they’re getting nice internships and they’re getting great job offers before they ever walked across the stage to get their diploma. 

[00:08:35] Libby Galatis: Absolutely. I mean, the wealth of opportunity for sales students or those that have that sales experience or that took the sales courses. Employers everywhere are realizing the value those individuals can bring to a company. Sales are the heartbeat of any business, and if your sales team isn’t strong, if that Salesforce isn’t there, companies can’t grow, and young talent,

[00:08:58] I mean, it’s expanding quickly. As a company that hires almost exclusively recent grads and those that are within that very early part of their career, we can definitely attest to that. So I want to talk a little bit about, looking over your background, it’s heavily marketing-focused and obviously, you’re teaching sales courses,

[00:09:14] and for those that don’t know, sales and marketing go hand in hand. But I’m curious about your experience with students who are very marketing-focused and how you kind of changed their perspective and enlightened them too how important sales is and how sales can actually open up a lot of doors within marketing for them.

[00:09:32] Do you find that your students are drawn more towards marketing versus sales and how do you kind of, position them to understand that sometimes that marketing role might not present itself right as you’re a recent grad? Just tell us a bit about that experience.

[00:09:47] Bonnie Guy: I don’t get as much of a chance to do that with them until they sign up for the freshman selling course, and certainly we have other activities and things on campus. And so, I don’t know that it’s any different than even the students who have a sales concentration or something like that. One of the things we do on the second day of our professional selling class, which is the foundational one, is I have a sales panel,

[00:10:13] so I typically have about, four salespeople. I try to mix it up in terms of gender, industry, B2B, B2C. It’s hard with just four, but I want them to be different because stainless often when hearing about sales and if they or their parents have been in sales or they’ve had a sales job, or they’ve known somebody

[00:10:35] but they have a very limited view, so they think sales is just one thing. And, sales is a big umbrella. Two people who have sales jobs can be doing entirely different things every day with different people inside, outside, travel, no travel, things like that. So I try to diversify that and then we, we just, kind of, a semi-casual conversation like we’re having here today. I ask them, “When you were in college, did you imagine that you might be in sales?” Some of them say, “Yes, I always knew. This is why.” And, some of them go, “Hey, heck no, I was a criminal justice major,” or “I was a nutrition and dietician major,” or whatever,

[00:11:16] “I had no clue I’d ever be in sales.”. We talk about what are the rewards of being in sales and then let’s be honest, what are the drawbacks, what are challenges of being in sales. And, the students love it. I ask them to talk about one of their most memorable sales interactions and what they learned from it.

[00:11:35] Some of those are funny, some are pretty poignant, some are crash and burn stories. This semester we had Justin Chapman and he’s with Group Management services and he talked about a big acc, account he closed that started with the gatekeeper, throwing a gift of cookies back in his face. So then, students love to hear those stories, but it really humanizes it and it allows them to ask questions too and see that sales are very indifferent,

[00:12:04] if you don’t like one kind of sales, you may like another, and just who these people are, and that you don’t have to be a born salesperson, you don’t have to think that that’s maybe what you were going to go in. So kind of, that’s a roundabout answer to your question and it’s not a full answer, but those are the marketing students, and they’re getting some of the same perspectives that the sales stints are.

[00:12:28] A lot of them, neither one, depending on their majors have those perspectives. And so, those kinds of things in our, also in our professional selling class, they have to get a sales mentor for the semester. So they do a very involved, applied project. They get a mentor, they take some piece of that mentors’ product or service mix and they dig deep and learn about it,

[00:12:55] and about some competition, and they have four installments over the semester. We go through product knowledge, competitive assessment, prospecting, all of this for them, for the individual students focusing on their mentor, their mentors’ industry, their mentors’ company. We do pre-approach, approach, sales presentation development,

[00:13:16] so they ultimately have to pick a hypothetical prospect that may be a real person, and they’re never going to contact them, and the rest of their project focuses on that prospect. They have to determine what kind of sales meeting they’re going to hold with that prospect. They have to brainstorm the objections, the closing, the follow-up, everything.

[00:13:38] They can do some shadowing with their mentor, and then ultimately what we’re doing right now, that I mentioned to you guys before we started, is role play. So, the mentor plays the part of the buyer. The student plays their role as the salesperson. They do a 15-minute sales role play based on everything they did all semester long on that.

[00:13:58] So those are just a few of the things that help students understand what sales is, whether or not they might like to do that. The project begins to give them some idea about whether they can be successful, the interactions with peers, alumni, the sales panel, the companies that come on. So I guess the answer is we just bombard them from probably, you know, every sort of angle that we can while they’re here and give them every chance to interact and apply those skills.

[00:14:31] Libby Galatis: I love that. And, I think a lot of students, they’re just so enlightened in those sales courses, realizing how much more there is to sales, and sales is a profession and all of the moving parts that are involved with the process. You had mentioned something earlier about the process and the science behind sales and how that, I mean, I think most people don’t realize if you look behind the curtain, all of the 

[00:14:55] steps that are involved, and those that are more process-oriented or more cerebral or kind of analytical. We’ve had reps come through our company that is, they consider themselves to be introverted and they become equally successful as sales professionals that are on the extroverted side. So I want to talk a bit about you and your background and sort of how professional sales, sales came about in your life

[00:15:15] ’cause obviously you’ve developed a true passion for it, and I’m curious, you know if you found yourself having similar misconceptions regarding sales before you being enlightened to that scientific side of the process and just kind of walk us through a bit about how you stumbled upon this being, where you decided to pursue your career as a professor and then kind of focusing your education there.

[00:15:37] Bonnie Guy: Right. So, as I mentioned, when I was 18, I got my real estate license. I’d worked in my dad’s real estate office for two summers. I got to see what that looked like. I realized I was doing about half the work for some of the agents in the office, but they were getting the big commission checks,

[00:15:56] and so I was like, “Well, I can take a class in this and I can do that.” Certainly, that was a learning curve, although it was a lot of fun. I think from insight there, I really saw over my dad’s career and watching other people that it really was a helping profession. It wasn’t going to try to cram something down your throat.

[00:16:15] Certainly those were my perceptions, most, a lot of people have that perception of salespeople. I did some other interviews after college, just to kind of explore opportunities, and some of the companies I interviewed with that were, had sales positions, unfortunately, they only reinforced by negative perceptions,

[00:16:38] so that was kind of too bad. But, my dad was a big influence on me. A lot of the people he knew were a big influence on me. I think I moved away, I moved out of real estate, even though it was a lot of fun, one was the economy at the time. So interest rates, if you can imagine it, or at 13 and 14% there, you know, what are we getting mortgages for today?

[00:17:00] 3.5. Yeah. Wow. Right? So there were a lot of economic issues, plus my age, which was something I could cope with, overcome, but when I was 23, I looked 13. That didn’t help either. But I think part of that is, you know, you wouldn’t get out of the shadow of your parents and make sure that you’re being successful because it’s what you’re doing,

[00:17:21] and not because somehow they’re secretly pulling, uh, levers behind a curtain or something. And so actually, you know, I went away from sales for a while because I, unfortunately, did see companies where those negative stereotypes and stereotypes come from somewhere, right? Now, I’ll have a kernel of truth in them,

[00:17:43] and sometimes they get exaggerated and then sometimes the truth changes, but it takes the stereotype a long time to change. So you know, the sales I was involved with early and then starting that small advertising and promotion business of so, of course, I was focused more on marketing as a service, but we had to do a lot of sales, right?

[00:18:05] To try to pull in clients. So I guess, in different than maybe some of the people you interview and actually different than my colleague James Files, my sales are more entrepreneurial or small-scale, it’s never been big-corporate type sales. So real estate, consulting, promotion services.

[00:18:26] So I don’t have, I mean, I think what I bring to the table is useful, but then I’m glad I have colleagues who, James has 25 plus years in sales and sales leadership with big telecom and technology-based companies, the one most people would recognize more readily is, like, Motorola. So he has that different take on sales that I don’t have,

[00:18:51] so I think our students benefit from that. Right? They get to see both sides of that. But, so again, the simple answer to that is my dad showed me a side of sales that appealed to me and that made me feel like I contributed value to the people that I worked with, and I didn’t feel pushy and manipulative and slimy, you know?

[00:19:14] And then, later after I did get into academia, I love teaching sales because I can see, even if my students aren’t great when they’re done, like, I can always see in every student a change or an improvement in their skill base from where they started with me. And, some improved leaps and bounds and some improve a little, some come to me with skills already and then just build on those,

[00:19:41] some have zero when they get there. So, teaching’s a lot of fun, but when you’re teaching behavioral skills, it’s really fun because you get to see the impact of what you’re doing with people. 

[00:19:52] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. And, in sales, like, there’s no such thing as perfect. Right? It’s just more about progress and trying new techniques and building skills. So that’s really exciting and amazing. I kind of love that your experience is in, you mentioned entrepreneurial, not these huge corporations. I think that appeals to students, but maybe sometimes influences or influencers in their life, like parents or family, like, get a little nervous about that,

[00:20:20] and maybe they say, “Hey, go with the brand name. Go with the company you know.” We operate in the world of high-tech, but specifically, we work with a lot of startups who maybe are on the cutting edge of technology, but they don’t quite have that brand recognition yet. How do you take your experience, kind of being this entrepreneur, right, in your own right,

[00:20:40] and help your students figure out what’s next for them in their career when they’re considering, “Do I do this big name that I know or do I kind of forge my own path because I believe in this company that, you know, maybe isn’t Motorola?” 

[00:20:56] Bonnie Guy: Right. That’s a good question. It’s a fine line to walk. I, sure I want to coach my students, but sometimes we get into this conversation where they go, “Oh, I have a job offer here, here, and here. Which one should I take?” And I go, I can’t tell you what, you’re the one who has to you to live your life.

[00:22:09] I tell you to do this and then you have to go live with what’s good and bad about that. I’m not going there. Sorry.” But, generally for what my students, I tell them there are two really important questions to ask when they’re thinking about going to work for any company. First is just, “Is it a good company?”

[00:22:27] Well, ” Does it match your values?” Um, “Yeah, it could be new or a startup, but does it have some stability? Is it a decent product? How does it, does stand up to competition, and do they treat their employees well?” And so, just overall, “Is it a good company?” But then, there’s the second most important question after you’ve said, “Yeah.” If you say, “No” to that, then we’re done, right?

[00:22:50] I mean, that’s gone. But if you say “Yes,” then the next most important question, “Is it a good company for me?” Because they tell them, you know, what your dream job is can be somebody else’s nightmare job or vice versa. So whether it’s entrepreneurial or it’s corporate, I do tell them they need to look at a few things.

[00:23:09] One is training, support entry, growth opportunities. Not saying that’s going to happen in six months, but you want to know, “If I go here, what, what is one or more paths I could take from here?” And, I encourage them to really think about what do they want to do each day, what kind of people do they want to do with,

[00:23:31] just, what they want their lifestyle to look like, both professionally and in the big picture. So I encourage them before they do a lot of being exposed to companies who are interviewing them, and let’s be honest, they’re pitching to good-quality candidates, and before you get an Amber of some of the

[00:23:52] wow-this-is-a-great-opportunity thing, is this step back and kind of make a checklist of, “What are the boxes that an opportunity is to check off for me?” So then, when they come to the upscaling of, “Oh, I get these three job offers, which one do I take?” I just start asking them questions, much

[00:24:10] like we do our prospects, 

[00:24:12] Kristen Wisdorf: same thing, right? Yeah. 

[00:24:13] Bonnie Guy: Great. So you know, when you reflected, “What are the things that are most important to you in an opportunity and a company and a career path? Okay, well, let’s look at these three options, which of them match that kind of separately to that?” You know, you talked about students having an entrepreneurial outlook.

[00:24:31] We have in Appalachia, we have the TPI center for entrepreneurship and very strong entrepreneurial sort of classes and programs and stuff here. So I think students are already sort of open to that, and that student with three job offers could come in and once cutting-edge sort of startup, once the Motorola or very well established company, and I will treat that too much different other than,

[00:24:59] “What is your checklist look like? What kind of company culture, what sort of opportunities, growth, development, mentoring, income, potential, things like that.” So I certainly don’t discourage them from those types of companies that you mentioned. Yeah, I’m sure, I know parents get, they get edgy about that,

[00:25:20] and I’m a parent too, so I understand where they’re coming from, but then I say, “Well, if you really believe in this opportunity that lets you use your sales skills, and how are you going to talk to your parents about that?” 

[00:25:30] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s so true. And, if you believe in your sales skills and yourself, right? Because your first job most likely is not going to be your last job, you can always pivot once you try something. Okay. So I really liked, what you mentioned earlier when you bring people into your classrooms, whether it’s alumni or some of your corporate partners, there was a story about someone who had a gatekeeper essentially throw cookies in his face and

[00:25:55] I imagine throughout your time in real estate and advertising and your marketing firm, you probably have some unique stories as well, so I want to have a little bit of fun here. This is what we call “our best deal, worst deal.” So it’s kind of wild how, like, sometimes those horror stories are the most memorable but in a

[00:26:14] weirdly, like, fond way as a salesperson, you look at them, you look back at them as, like, character-building or whatever. Dr. Guy, what do you have, like, the best deal or a horror story, or a really strong memory that you look back and you’re like, “Man, that was tough during the time, but now I look back and laugh,” or something like that.

[00:26:32] Bonnie Guy: When I was selling real estate and I was pretty young, to begin with, and I looked younger than that, and I’ll give you a little background, then I’ll tell you the story. So. I was pretty knowledgeable and I could speak knowledgeably, so if I were to talk to potential people moving to the area, so maybe I’d be helping them find a home, if we could talk to them on the phone first, that was great,

[00:26:55] but if I was, like, doing what we call floor duty and somebody came into the office and looked around, and maybe I had my sign out somewhere and my name on it, and then you go “Let me speak to Bonnie Guy,” and I go, “That’s me.” And, they are like, they turn around it, there are other more gray-haired people in the office and like, “Oh my gosh, what are we getting into?

[00:27:14] She’s a baby. How could she know anything about this?” But I do remember one put in an offer for my clients on a piece of new construction. Still, it wasn’t finished in the appeal of that for clients as they get to pick more things before it’s already done, and a builder, can’t remember his last name and I remember his first name was Charlie something,

[00:27:37] and so this is one of my first sales, by there was still single digits, and I tend to be a very sort of, I want to be very detailed and precise and complete, so I wrote up a contract and I think I said something about that they would obtain a certain type of mortgage or maybe from a particular financial institution,

[00:27:59] I don’t know, and it ends up for whatever reason. They weren’t going to get it from that bank. They could still qualify, they were going to go to another bank, but Mr. Builder got somebody who came in during that time and wanted to pay him more money for that property than we had on our contract, and he used my precision against me by saying, “I don’t have to honor your contract because you said they would get a conventional loan from this bank and that’s apparently not going to happen,

[00:28:33] so the contract is null and void, and I’m now under contract with these other people who are going to pay me more money than your clients were.” So the deal fell through. I felt awful because I felt like in trying to do a good job, I had actually been a liability to my clients. They could have qualified for that property with some other bank,

[00:28:54] it wasn’t a problem. I don’t even remember why it wasn’t going to happen with that bank, but they were clearly financially qualified. They would get caught financing, and then I had to go back as this pipsqueak, right, and say, “Gosh, I’m sorry, the contract is dead. I know you wanted the house.” And then, my dad, who said, he worked with Mr.

[00:29:14] Builder on several transactions, and, he said, “Well, I’m going to have the opportunity to see Builder today. Should I keep my mouth shut or what?” And, I said, “Well, you just tell him that I thank him for giving me a valuable lesson in real estate. I won’t forget it, but I also might not be bringing any more clients to him anytime soon.”

[00:29:37] So it was very humbling. And, it is, it was clear, you mean, people’s concerns were to some extent, value, valid. I worked very hard, I tried to be knowledgeable, but I wasn’t experienced and inexperienced salespeople make mistakes. But one of the reasons I remember that is I’ve, I’ve felt like he really manipulated me in my inexperience, he used the loophole to get out of that contract, but I also remember just feeling great, just to how badly I felt that I left my clients down.

[00:30:09] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, that’s interesting. You said, “Thank you for the lesson,” and I think that is, like, such a good way to look back on it, even though, really stuck at the moment, I’m sure it probably still sings looking back on it, but, “Thank you for the lesson” is like a good mantra for all new salespeople when they get into their career.

[00:30:27] Bonnie Guy: I wish I could accept that compliment. I think it was sort of delivered sarcastically or I intended it to be, but either that, so yeah, there was some element of that is, “Yeah, I’ll, I won’t make those mistakes again. You shouldn’t have taken advantage of me, but okay.” I tell my students all the time, I say, “Never waste a good failure.”

[00:30:51] Like, you already failed, right? So take out of it whatever ROI you can mine out of a failure because you already failed. That’s not going to change. Right? So you already paid the costs, so maybe I can’t get full ROI on the cost, but I can get something out of it. Right? And so, actually, I was just reading an article over here,

[00:31:14] can’t remember what magazine it’s out of, but it’s called “The Value of Failure.” And, it’s hard for students. I grade pretty hard, but I also get really clear guidelines, but, and I just try to tell them, ” “This is not about you. It’s about something you did or didn’t do. You’re not a failure.

[00:31:31] Maybe this role-play was a failure, right? You are not. And, what can you take from this?” So yeah, it’s, your students care a lot about grades. I’m glad they do. But sometimes equally I want them to care about the learning, right, which makes the grade, not irrelevant, but it’s not the only thing.

[00:31:51] But I’ve failed a lot. I’m sure I’ll continue to do that till I’m dead, but it also is part of the foundation of what drives your success. 

[00:32:00] Libby Galatis: I think every single salesperson that is listening to this podcast can agree as much as sales are about winning the deals and closing and making the money, it comes with the losses too, and you have to roll with them. And, a challenge that I always found when I was recruiting campus candidates, and, you know, watching them go through the entry-level experience here is they have to rewire their brains from being focused on the wins and focused on achieving, those achievements, and learn to embrace that failure,

[00:32:29] and that’s a very challenging hump for a lot of people to overcome, especially within that first year or so. 

[00:32:35] Bonnie Guy: It still is. I mean, after all these years, I mean, nobody likes to fail. 

[00:32:39] Libby Galatis: Absolutely. So I guess with that said, on the flip side of it, you know, with those failures also come the wins. Maybe you can tell us a bit about what your biggest win has been throughout your career. It can be sales-focused or it can be, you know, within your career in general, but one of the highlights in your experience so far, I’d love to hear more about that.

[00:32:57] Bonnie Guy: Well, that’s a tough question. And, I guess it’s sort of sales-related, but more in the educational area and it says, this is a little less important, but this past year I won a few teaching awards in that, but I think really along those lines, the words are nice, but it’s really, that’s just symbolic of the outcomes that you’re driving.

[00:33:20] The outcomes are more important to me. And, this may sound silly, I don’t know, but since I formalized the sales program and we really got some things going, I don’t know if before that I ever had parents tell their students, “I want to meet you. I want to meet professor Guy after graduation.” Right? And so, I have so many more parents.

[00:33:45] I’ve had students before go, “Oh, hey, you know, I want you to meet my parents,” but where they say, “My parents said they want to meet you after graduation,” and then they’ll say things like, “Well, Sam never really seemed to know what he wanted to do until he got in this program, and then he said that you helped them figure that out,”

[00:34:07] and, “Already connected you with this employer,” or, “Jennifer is so excited about her career,” and, or, “Hey, my kid’s not moving home,” and, or just whatever those things are. So not only just the kids want me to meet their parents, but they’re also telling me, “My parents said after graduation can we meet somewhere, like, around the building

[00:34:29] ’cause my parents want to meet you.” And, the teaching awards are great. I mean, they’re nice accolades, I won’t lie about that, and when they come with money, that’s nice too. But anything more than that is just those kinds of things that tell me that all the time I put into it in them, through the good and the frustrations, made an impact on somebody, it made a difference, and you go, “Okay, well, then I guess that’s all worthwhile.”

[00:34:58] Libby Galatis: That’s incredible and extremely rewarding. I mean, that’s, it speaks for itself. Thank you for sharing that. I wanna talk a bit more about something that I’ve experienced recruiting salespeople, like young salespeople that are looking for that, that initial step. There are typically two different types of candidates that I talk to,

[00:35:14] the first one is those that are intentionally and specifically pursuing sales. They’ve kind of identified, “This is where I want to be. This is how I want to get there. My long-term goal is professional sales and that’s what I want to do.” And then, there’s another group of individuals that maybe have these up-in-the-air kinds of long-term goals.

[00:35:31] They can go into management, marketing, consulting. There are so many different avenues of opportunity out there professionally. And, I’m curious about the students that maybe don’t have it all figured out and don’t know where they see themselves three, five years from now, do you think sales is a good first step for them to take

[00:35:48] as they transition into that first-year post-grad, and I’m curious why or why not? What do they have to gain from that experience, if that next step for them or that future focuses sort of up in the air?

[00:35:59] Bonnie Guy: Yeah. Obviously, it’s not the only good first step. I mean, I’m really biased about my discipline or my field. It’s cliche, you talk to any professor or any salesperson on a podcast and they might tell you, “Oh, everything is sales,” right? So we want to claim the whole world. Everything is sales. But again, that’s largely true.

[00:36:21] Sales is a good first step because one, sales itself is a profession, as a career path in itself can be very rewarding, both from a financial, a relationship, a lifestyle sort of standpoint. It’s also a good launching pad, so for those marketing students, you go, “Well, I gotta be open to sales, but I don’t know if I want to do sales my whole career.

[00:36:47] Like, I want to get in branding,” or, “I want to get in social media or digital,” or whatever that is. And, I just say, “Well, sales are often the entry portal into a company.” I even had a student in principles of marketing class coming one day, he was all dressed up, I said, “You look really sharp.

[00:37:06] What’s up?” He said, “I had a job interview.” He was a computer information sciences major, and I said, “How did it go?” He goes, “It was really frustrating. It was an entry-level programming job, and they told me I’m going to have to start, if they hire me, I have to spend 6 to 12 months in sales. Now I’m not a marketing major and I don’t want to be in sales,

[00:37:27] and I don’t know why I have to be in sales because it’s a programming job,” you know? So we talked about, well, when you’re creating software, which could be the product, you have to know who’s kind of want to use it and what problems they want it to solve and how it needs to work, and you’re never closer to your customers than you are when you’re in sales.

[00:37:52] So I said, “I understand your frustration, but that’s probably why.” And so, it is an entry portal and you take a company like E. & J. Gallo. Nobody, you know what I mean, nobody starts with that company if they don’t do 18 to 24 months in retail, distribution sales first. That includes the grandchildren of the founders of the company.

[00:38:15] Right? And, they’re being granted to do other things. They’re not going to spend a whole career in sales, but everybody starts there. So I’ve got students who go, “Man, I’d love to work for a company like Gallo. Love to be in that industry,” or something. Great. Well, sales are the entry portal. So this is why it’s a good launching pad.

[00:38:35] And, the third is just, it’s hard, and you learn about yourself and you learn about people and you learn about communication. And sales really is everywhere. And, often I tell students too, “Just look at it as, like, grad school, only instead of you paying tuition to get a grad degree, they’re paying you to go out and learn,” right?

[00:39:00] So it may not be your favorite job ever, or may not be with that company forever or in sales forever, but it’s a really great place to when you leave, so students always go, “I read power versus the real world,” I go, “Well, you want the real world? There it is. Go eat it up.” Right? That’s just the real world as it gets.

[00:39:21] But it is, it’s a great place to develop yourself, and really it can lead anywhere. It can lead out of strictly business, you know if you want to go in and nonprofit. Lord knows they need people with sales skills, right? Because their traditional funding sources are getting cut off. They’re having it generate their own resources,

[00:39:41] so, somebody with a really good sales background who just wants to, they just want to work for a nonprofit and to help people. Well, your sales skills are really going to be critical there. 

[00:39:51] Kristen Wisdorf: Absolutely. I think you make such a good point that whatever you want to do long-term or where a student sees themselves, it is often the entry point in that company for a reason because those skills never go away and you’ll need them ultimately. Okay. We’re gonna do some just fast questions.

[00:40:10] Just answer the first thing that comes to your mind. As a student of the game, Dr. Guy, how do you stay fresh? What do you do? Are there any books or podcasts or groups that you’re in? What do you do to stay hit by the sales game?

[00:40:24] Bonnie Guy: All of that. I’m a pretty big reader and those students don’t always like to read as much, so I either encourage them to do that, or podcasts are a different format, but it is a way of hopping into people’s knowledge, getting different perspectives. And also just, I love our corporate partners because they let me have an inside look at the things that they’re doing,

[00:40:46] and, you know, that keeps me up to date on new technologies or new processes or anything new in the sales game, as you call it. 

[00:40:55] Libby Galatis: Wonderful. And, my question is, and this is a question we actually asked during our interview process. But doctor Guy, you love to win, or do you hate to lose?

[00:41:06] Bonnie Guy: Both, but I think I love to win more. And, I think that I know it’s part of the competitive thing, but generally, I think salespeople that work out of fear don’t do as well as people that are working out of a goal orientation or an outcome orientation. It’s certainly fear that can motivate people, “I’m on commission.

[00:41:29] Can I pay the rent this month?” But, just in general, especially in our very hyper-political world, what I try to tell my daughter is, ” Before something, like, don’t be against something so it goes translates back.” So I like to focus more on the positive than on the negative, so in general, I like to win more than I hate to lose.

[00:41:51] Libby Galatis: That was my answer to that question when I interviewed for memoryBlue as well, so I definitely identify with that. I want to ask you another question, which was actually one of the icebreakers that I used with my team the other day. Dr. Guy, what is your least favorite food and why?

[00:42:07] Bonnie Guy: Oh my goodness. My least favorite food.

[00:42:11] I don’t know. There’s not a lot of things I won’t, absolutely won’t eat, but maybe I can tell you the last time I ever had it, but maybe we’ll liver. 

[00:42:22] Kristen Wisdorf: Oh, yeah. Okay. And, the last question, if you could have a billboard anywhere in the world that said anything you wanted it to say, where would it be and what would it say? 

[00:42:32] Bonnie Guy: Oh my Gosh. Think you stumped me on that one. I might want it to say they, to come to have lunch and do our sales program, but if I can only have one, then, and I don’t know where that highest traffic area is in my target market for that, maybe somewhere between, uh, Raleigh and Heron, on highway 421. I’m not sure.

[00:42:51] Kristen Wisdorf: I like your, um, “Before something, not against something.” That could be a good billboard. 

[00:42:55] Bonnie Guy: Yeah. 

[00:42:56] Kristen Wisdorf: Well, we appreciate you spending some time with us, Dr. Guy. You have been doing a lot of App State. Obviously, we know some of your alumni, which is really exciting, so we appreciate everything you’re doing to advance the profession of sales and for spending some time with us today.

[00:43:11] Thank you so much. 

[00:43:12] Bonnie Guy: Thanks for inviting me. It’s been very enjoyable.