Campus Series:  Dena Hale – The Sales Veteran

While a money-hungry mentality and selfish ambition may seem synonymous with a sales career, that couldn’t be farther from the truth. According to Dena Hale, sales is about two things: effective communication and helping people. Without both, you’ll either end up as a smooth-talking salesman with no clear purpose, or a person with good intentions but no concrete success.

In this episode of the Campus Series Podcast, assistant professor at Stetson University, Dena Hale unpacks her military experience and its influences on her career, shares her views on the sales role, and describes Stetson’s sales classes and how she gets her students interested in the industry.

Guest-At-A-Glance

💡 Name: Dena Hale

💡 What she does: Dena is an assistant professor at Stetson University.

💡 Company: Stetson University

💡 Noteworthy: Dena earned a triple degree (BS in business administration, BA in marketing, and BA in foreign language and international business), an MBA, and a Ph.D. in marketing from Southern Illinois University, Carbondale. She has over 20 years of professional experience in marketing and sales within the services sector and 11 years as a soldier, non-commissioned officer, and analyst in the US Army (active), US Army Reserves, and Illinois National Guard. Most recently, Dena has been the successful owner of a gourmet coffee house and a self- and full-service laundromat. She also offers sales training and consulting to small businesses.

💡 Where to find Dena: LinkedIn l Website

Key Insights

⚡ We can learn a lot from each other. Dena joined the military after high school, and that experience brought her a lot: she got to know different countries, people, and cultures, which contributed to her personal and professional development, and shaped her in many ways. As Dena says, when she joined the military, her eyes were opened to other people’s needs, and she also learned how to interact with others. “The biggest part of how it impacts my ability as a salesperson, and even as a professor, is since I understand other cultures, I understand we’re all different and that we are all valuable and that everybody has a story, and the best thing you can do is learn that story because you’re going to learn something and you’re going to grow from it.”

⚡ Sales is about two things: effective communication and helping people. Sales is a great career where you can advance quickly and earn a high salary, but it is also a career with many prejudices and misconceptions that discourage people from entering it. According to Dena, even though people think that sales is about trying to get it for yourself, professional sales is actually about communicating effectively and helping people. “If I’m here to find out what you need, I’m just communicating. I’m connecting with you. I’m building a relationship. I’m finding out what you need. If I can’t help, there’s nothing for me to sell to you, but I don’t sell even if I can help. If I can help, all I’m supposed to do is show you how I can help, the benefits of working with me, and how I can help you reach your goals together; you’re my primary focus. And in doing that, then you decide, am I the right fit? And if I am, then let’s co-produce solutions; let’s work together.” 

⚡ Sales is often running your own mini business within a larger company. Many people love the idea of ​​starting their own business, but they usually take it lightly. Entrepreneurship is about developing, organizing, and running a business enterprise, but you also need to be prepared for all the uncertainties and risks that you may face on the way to making a profit. Dena notes that not everyone with an entrepreneurial mindset has a high level of risk that they’re comfortable with, so she suggests entering sales. “If you’re an entrepreneur in your mind, but you don’t want to be the one that’s responsible for keeping the lights on, and you don’t want to necessarily not get paid, you can do the same thing in sales because you become your own independent contractor; you just happen to be getting a salary; you happen to have a benefits package; you happen to have somebody else paying for the lights and the gas. So, you get all the benefits of being an entrepreneur with the guidance that comes with being like a franchise, but you don’t have all that risk and all that overhead that goes with it.” 

Episode Highlights

The Mentoring Process

“When I see something else in a student that they don’t see in themselves, that’s where true mentorship comes in. It’s how can I help them identify in their own place? How can I do my selling skills? How can I help them in a needs discovery? How can I get them to hear themselves say what do they want in life? And then together, how can I help them get there? And if they buy into it, then maybe I can work with them. That’s how I’ve approached the mentoring process.”

How Dena Gets Students Interested in a Sales Career

“What is it you want to do in your life?” is my favorite question when they don’t really know; they just know they’re getting a degree in something. I ask them to sit down, and sometimes, it takes two or three meetings; I say, ‘What would you do for free? Let’s pretend like your parents just won that 300 million zillion dollar lottery, so money’s not an issue. What activities — not jobs — what activities would you do for free?’ And that stumps them every time. I’m like, ‘But what would you do for free? What would you do just because you’re bored? I don’t care if it’s walking the dog, if it’s going outside, if it’s sitting around, playing video games. Start there, and I want a list of 50 things. And be specific. Don’t say, ‘Read a book.’ What kind of books? Are there multiple books? That can be three different things.’ And I get them to write that, and when they finally do it, then I can sit down with them, and I look, and I’m like, ‘Okay, so here’s a number of things that you would do for free. Let’s clump those into types of categories or activities. What kind of career opportunities exist that let you do those things, and you just happen to get paid?’ So I do it backwards. And so then they think, and it usually ends up being things like having the flexibility of schedule, financial freedom, helping people, being outside, not being in an office, and those things. I’m like, ‘You know what? That sounds like sales. And in sales, it’s any industry you want.'”

Benefits of Sales Classes at Stetson University

“The biggest part of what you do in a sales class is there’s a lot of hands-on, a lot of role-playing. So, you get actual execution, not just head knowledge; you get muscle memory. I think what we do in the classroom is relevant to the real world. Whether they’re in entrepreneurship, if they’re just a manager, if they’re just at a job right now and they want to talk about getting a raise or creating some type of an event or want to do fundraising, anything they do, this is so relevant to all they do. And so, we can connect immediately, where some students can’t connect the content of a class until they’re in that career field. But if we say we’re communicating and helping people, if they’re in a sorority of fraternity, if they’re in sports even, there’s nothing that we’re sharing that they can’t apply almost immediately.”

Transcript:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

[00:00:00] Dena Hale: I’ve always said sales is about two things, effective communication and helping people. And that’s what professional sales is.

[00:00:07] Because if I’m here to find out what you need, I’m just communicating. I’m connecting with you, I’m building relationship, I’m finding out what you need. If I can’t help, there’s nothing for me to sell to you. 

[00:00:17] Kristen Wisdorf: ​Welcome back, hustlers. It is the Tech Sales is for Hustlers Special Campus Series. I’m your host, Kristen Wisdorf. Super excited, today we have Kelsie Edmonds joining me as co-host. Hi, Kelsie.

[00:01:16] Kelsie Edmonds: Hi, everyone, excited to be here.

[00:01:18] Kristen Wisdorf: We’re excited to have you, Kelsie. It is a Girl Power episode of the Tech Sales is for Hustlers podcast because we have as our guest Dr. Dena Hale from Stetson University as, yeah, Assistant Professor at Stetson University. Correct?

[00:01:31] Dena Hale: Yes.

[00:01:32] Kristen Wisdorf: All right. Well, we’re excited to have you. Welcome to the podcast. 

[00:01:35] Dena Hale: Thank you. Excited to be here.

[00:01:37] Kristen Wisdorf: Well, we love when we have strong saleswomen on our podcast, but I don’t wanna give anything away, this is your story to tell. So, we like to start these episodes the same way I like to start my interviews with college students, believe it or not, which is, why don’t you take 60 seconds, give or take, and tell us about you?

[00:01:57] Give us your highlight reel, let’s call it.

[00:01:59] Dena Hale: Okay. Highlight reel. I’m a full-energy coach. I’m not a professor. I work with individuals to help them meet their challenges and overcome them and meet their goals. So, basically, I’m a salesperson in the classroom, and it’s easy, right? Find out what they need, convince them that you can help them and they perform and then they get great jobs after college. That’s in a nutshell.

[00:02:22] Kristen Wisdorf: I love that. I love the way you described what you do now. So, you are at Stetson University in Florida, and Kelsie and I were just chatting, we know Stetson because y’all come, like, I don’t know, it’s like a postcard when you come into these sales competitions because you’re all dressed super nice, and you’re all wearing your Stetson hats.

[00:02:41] So, you guys know how to market yourselves too. 

[00:02:44] Dena Hale: Yeah, well, being Stetson University, it was a very easy extension, right? But branding is, you know, if you don’t brand yourself, how can you brand what you do? And so, we teach that to everybody about branding yourself as what you wanna be. And so, we like to say when we’re walking down the, um, the corridor at the airport, it almost looks like the right stuff, right?

[00:03:02] We’re walking down like the, like the people coming out of the, uh, launchpad. People just kind of get their attention and then the students just start talking to ’em. The hats are a great starting conversational piece.

[00:03:12] Kristen Wisdorf: I love it. And you look professional. Like, you look like a group that, if I were a student at Stetson, I’d wanna be part of that group, which I think is really important and exciting too for your sales program. So, let’s take it back a little further. Talk to us a little bit about you growing up, where did you grow up?

[00:03:29] Where did you originally go to college? What happened way, way back before you made it to Stetson?

[00:03:34] Dena Hale: Way, way back. You’re asking me to go way back. Well, let’s see. I, I was born in California, grew up in Phoenix, Arizona. I’m the daughter of a man who was in the Marines for over 30 years. So, we did quite a bit of traveling, and I did get to spend most of my time in Phoenix, which I loved because it gave me a multicultural growing-up environment.

[00:03:52] And I joined the military, followed the family, you know, everyone, my brother, all of us are in the military at some point. I, I joined that out of high school. Great experience. I got to learn Chinese, I got to travel to South Korea, I got to be in Seattle, got to be stationed in Hawaii. So, many amazing experiences that exposed me to things I never would have been able to see and to cultures and to people.

[00:04:15] And I found out I have a love for people after that. And so, when I got outta the military, I decided, you know, “What do I wanna do? I wanna go back to school. I wanna give back. I wanna be around people.” So, I started my undergrad program in Marketing and International Business at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, Illinois.

[00:04:34] I chose that because it had Chinese as an option, and if I was still in the National Guard, I could go to school for free, so I took advantage of that. 

[00:04:42] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s incredible. You’ve lived so many places.

[00:04:45] Dena Hale: Yes. I’ve been blessed and excited, yeah, about that.

[00:04:49] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. How has that shaped the type of salesperson you are and do, or do you think it has shaped that? 

[00:04:56] Dena Hale: I think it’s created who I am. The big joke is that I’ve been selling since I was born. As soon as I could talk, I guess I was fundraising, trying to, whether I was selling cookies or just asking people for money for something. And when I joined the military, I, I think my eyes were opened to the needs of other people, but also how to interact with other people.

[00:05:14] To me, the biggest part of how it impacts my ability as a salesperson and even as a professor is since I understand other cultures, I understand we’re all different and that we are all valuable and that everybody has a story and the best thing you can do is learn that story because you’re gonna learn something and you’re gonna grow from it.

[00:05:31] Kelsie Edmonds: And I think that’s a really good piece there of, like, learning and growing. So, you mentioned earlier about having this mentality of wanting to give back before hopping into the world of sales, you know? I, I think a lot of students have this, “I wanna make a difference and I wanna give back” mentality, but sales isn’t the first thing that they think of, you know, when they’re looking at potential jobs.

[00:05:51] What advice would you have for people who, that really is the stance that they want to take, but knowing that sales is an option?

[00:05:58] Dena Hale: Oh, my goodness. That’s such a great question. I’ll be honest, everyone, when they think of sales, you know, previously, they would think, “Well, it’s about trying to get for yourself.” And in our program and in my life, I’ve always said sales is about two things, effective communication and helping people. And that’s what professional sales is.

[00:06:16] Because if I’m here to find out what you need, I’m just communicating. I’m connecting with you, I’m building relationship, I’m finding out what you need. If I can’t help, there’s nothing for me to sell to you. But I don’t sell even if I can help. If I can help, all I’m supposed to do is show you how I can help.

[00:06:32] The benefits of working with me and, and how I can help you reach your goals together, you’re my primary focus, and in doing that, then you decide am I the right fit. And if I am, then let’s co-produce solutions. Let’s work together. When I was growing up, I remember asking a teacher, I think I was in seventh grade, and I said, “You know, it’s, I keep hearing that it’s better to give than to receive.”

[00:06:52] But then I’ve also heard that when you give, you get back 7-fold or 10-fold. So, if it’s better to give than receive, but every time you give, you receive back, how can you ever be better? And my teacher had said, “Well, maybe that’s the secret.” And I take that into my role as sales as well.

[00:07:09] Kristen Wisdorf: I think that’s such a great two things you just said because you can be competitive and self-motivated or money-motivated and get into sales and still help people. And that’s how those things, too, you know, work together. If you’re in it to communicate and help people and really listen and help them solve challenges or problems, then that, in turn will help you.

[00:07:32] And so, there’s this, like, this dichotomy of people thinking, like you said, sales is all about people who are really money-motivated and just about getting for themselves or making a lot of money, but then we hear from a lot of professors like you, it’s about helping people, and that’s really what it’s about

[00:07:46] and I think that’s the way those two things come together, and they can be accomplished at the same time.

[00:07:51] Dena Hale: I completely agree. If I take care of someone, like, when we take care of our students, in the long run, they end up remembering that, and then they come back and they want to mentor our students, or they want to hire as interns. So, by taking care of the person or the customer, or the prospect, at the end of the day, I’m getting paid, or I’m getting something else.

[00:08:09] I am getting taken care of. So, is it completely altruistic? Maybe not because I am getting something from it. It’s that little circle. But where do you start? You start with the other person first.

[00:08:20] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, that’s great. So, you were in the military, and then you decided to go to Southern Illinois University. How did you land at Southern Illinois?

[00:08:29] Dena Hale: Well, I was getting out of the military, and one of my sergeants that I had grown up with, their family kind of adopted me since I, you know, my family is all the way in Phoenix. When I got out, they said, “Hey, you know what? If you wanna come stay with us” ’cause their sons were like, my, my brothers at that point,

[00:08:42] they said, “Come and stay with us if you want. Decide what you wanna do.” And they were outside of the St. Louis area in Southern Illinois. And I found out about the university there, and I, I said, “You know, I wanna do international business. I wanna use my Chinese. I wanna move forward.” That was the goal, anyway.

[00:08:57] ‘Cause I had learned Chinese in the military, so I said, “I wanna do international business,” and I, and the university there in Carbondale was about 45 minutes from where they lived in Troy, Illinois. And I said, “I could easily go there. I could live on campus. I could, you know, could do something and it would be free, so I may as well take advantage of it.”

[00:09:14] And so, the end of goal was to obviously be an international business. I was gonna be a, you know, this famous person traveling the world and changing it one step at a time.

[00:09:23] Kristen Wisdorf: Oh, that’s great. How, how unique. You learned Chinese while you were in the military.

[00:09:28] Dena Hale: I did. Yeah. And what’s funny is I joined the military ’cause I didn’t wanna go to school ’cause I was burned out from high school. I had a full-ride scholarship to all three universities in Phoenix. And I said, or in uh, Arizona, and I said, “No, I’m tired.” So, I took a year off. And then I said, oh, “I wanna go to school.”

[00:09:41] My dad said, “Hmm, too bad. You better join the old military and get yourself a college fund.” So, yeah.

[00:09:47] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s amazing.

[00:09:48] Dena Hale: So, I joined the Army, and they sent me to the language school in Monterey, California. I was in college for a year.

[00:09:54] Kelsie Edmonds: It seems like you were in search of that real-world experience. Like, walk us through, you know, where you were at and what you were going through as you were deciding to make that choice in your life.

[00:10:04] Dena Hale: The choice to join the military?

[00:10:06] Kelsie Edmonds: Yes. I think more to, like, avoiding, like, going to those colleges where you had the scholarship opportunities and moving more towards that military option.

[00:10:13] Dena Hale: Yeah. I, I, but I had gotten burned out of school. I was a straight-A student, you know? You put everything into it. At some point, I think I needed to grow up to, had I gone straight to college, I highly doubt my freshman year would’ve been very successful. And I had seen my friends go into college, and they were having that struggle.

[00:10:28] And so, I actually started, uh, working at a law office. I worked as a, a secretary if you will, or a paralegal in training. I thought maybe I wanted to do that for, for school, and I was just around a lot of people who were really positive, a lot of women that were really big impacts for me. I think one of the best ones was one of the lawyers who worked with me.

[00:10:47] She kind of took me under her wing. I was, I’ve been blessed to have some great mentors who really said, “Look, if you wanna do this, you’re gonna have to go back to school.” And that, I said, “Okay,” and that’s when I, I said, “Well, if I wanna go to school, but I don’t know what I wanna do, and I need to grow up.”

[00:11:00] And, one of my colleagues at the time, she was the office manager, extremely amazing, strong woman. She had said that, you know, her kids had gone into the military, her daughter had great experiences there, and it’s a good place to find out. ‘Cause at that time, I was actually kind of shy and quiet. I wasn’t the person I am today, nearly at all.

[00:11:21] And she said if I needed to be more confident about my abilities and to understand that I’m a stronger female than I realize I am, that I needed to push myself and challenge myself, not just intellectually, but everywhere else too. And so, I said, “Well, the military seemed like a safe place ’cause I could grow up.

[00:11:38] I was gonna get fed, I was gonna have roof over my head, and I was gonna get a paycheck, and it was the easiest place to go to figure out what I wanted to do.” And it’s been the best experience and the best decision I have ever made.

[00:11:50] Kristen Wisdorf: I think that shows how strong and courageous you are, though. I, I think when people think about the military, they don’t think, “Oh, this is gonna be the easiest option.” Right? I think a lot of people, like, know how big of a challenge that is, so that also goes to show how strong of a woman you are. You mentioned mentor, you’ve had some good mentors in your life, and you mentioned the woman who had a big impact in your life when you were at the law office, and also, I think it was a sergeant who ended up taking you in, in St. Louis, so talk to me a little bit about the impact mentors have had and then as we transition, I’m curious how you encourage, or you would encourage someone who’s curious about getting into sales, how to find a good sales mentor.

[00:12:32] Dena Hale: You know, that’s a, a really great question. Something I hadn’t really thought of. When I look back at the mentors in my life, they’re not anybody that I actually sought out. They actually saw something in me, you know? A lot of times, we tell people, “Find somebody that you, you know, that you admire. Find someone who’s got the skills you want, and go talk to them.

[00:12:49] Set up the meeting and, and connect with them.” I’ve been on the other side where people have seen something in me and then gravitated and tried to pull that out in me. So, now I, that’s what I do. I’m more than happy to work with, you know, any student or any young professional who says, “Hey, there’s something about you.

[00:13:05] I wanna talk to you.” That’s great, but it’s not about me. It’s hopefully about something I can do for somebody else that’s got your attention. But when I see something else in a student that they don’t see themselves, that’s where I think true mentorship comes in. It’s how can I help them identify themselves in their own place.

[00:13:20] So, how can I do my selling skills, right? How can I help them in their own in a needs discovery? How can I get them to hear themselves say what they is that they want? What is, what do they want in life? And then together, how can I help them get there? And if they buy into it, then maybe I can work with them.

[00:13:36] And to me, that’s how I’ve approached the mentoring process. Again, I’ve, I’ve been blessed to have those examples in the past. 

[00:13:43] Kelsie Edmonds: That’s absolutely amazing, that you’ve been able to do that because I think, you know, we as women have a responsibility to identify the next women leaders in the business and come and have those, you know, mentor-mentee, like, relationships that we build,

[00:13:59] you know? I, I never remember thinking me, like out, coming out of college, like, I wanted a mentor, but where do I find them? And you said, you know, you attracted them to me, it was like, “How do I even attract someone?” So, I think, you know, when we move up here, a lot of times it’s on us to identify who those future leaders are that we can grow and develop

[00:14:15] and it sounds like you’ve done an amazing job of that right now with a lot of the students that you have, who have had the pleasure of meeting and you do have some really strong female competitors right now out in the sales competition landscape.

[00:14:28] Dena Hale: I completely agree. You know, sometimes we start looking around, and in certain environments, you see where it’s just, it’s women in the leadership, it’s all women sometimes. And I don’t like to always say it’s male versus female, it’s just where you are in your place. The reason why I have a special interest in mentoring with young females is one, I am you being a female myself, it’s easier to connect with them,

[00:14:49] but also, I think there’s so many voices that are going on, not just in the past while that, while these young ladies were growing up, but even right now, there’s so many voices in their head about what they’re supposed to be, what they’re supposed to believe, who they’re supposed to be like. You know what?

[00:15:03] They can be themselves, whoever that self is. They just, sometimes they need to figure out what that is or just be okay with that. And that’s where I start usually, is, you know, you’re okay just who you are and I see you. I see the you that you are or the you that you could be if you see it as well, and that’s where I think it makes a difference.

[00:15:21] You don’t have to have a bunch of voices. What is your voice?

[00:15:24] Kristen Wisdorf: Wow. That’s awesome. That’s incredible. I mean, I, I know here at memoryBlue we have more and more women in leadership roles and, um, like Kelsie and MD roles, and we have found that, um, our female SDRs, they really thrive here because I don’t know if it’s, you know, generationally, like that’s why there are fewer sales,

[00:15:45] we’re women in sales, especially in tech sales, but I think people like you, getting on these colleges, spending some time, getting women to like practice being in a sales environment in college and getting them more confident so that they feel really, really comfortable tackling kinda their first job outta school is how we’re gonna advance more women in sales and technology sales especially.

[00:16:08] I’m curious, how do you currently at your, at Stetson, get students interested and involved in the sales program, men or women, but specifically, you know, what are you doing to drive, I guess, the realization for students that this is a great career that they could have, that maybe they didn’t consider before?

[00:16:29] Dena Hale: You know, what’s interesting that you mentioned that is right now it’s actually kind of easy because the students that you have met that have gone to the competitions have done it for us at this stage. It’s now organic, which is where you want it to be. When we first started getting the program up and running, I joined Stetson right when we went online because of the pandemic.

[00:16:48] So, as soon as I got here, I’m like, “Great, we’re online. I don’t get to interact with these students in real life.” So, what I did is I just practiced what I teach. I continued to say, “Look, we need more practice, so let’s practice.” I got to know them individually. I said, you know, “What is it you wanna do in your life?” My favorite question when a student especially, they don’t really know, they just know they’re getting a degree in something,

[00:17:10] I ask ’em to sit down and, and sometimes it takes two or three meetings. I say, “What would you do for free? Let’s pretend like your parents just won that 300-million-zillion-dollar lottery. Okay? So money’s not an issue. What activities, not jobs, what activities would you do for free?” And they, that stumps them every time.

[00:17:27] I’m like, “But what would you do for free? What would you do just ’cause you’re bored? I don’t care if it’s walking the dog, if it’s going outside, if it’s sitting around playing video games, start there, and I wanna a list of 50 things. And be specific. Don’t say, ‘Read a book.’ What kind of books? Are there

[00:17:42] multiple kind of books? That can be three different things.” And I get them to write that list, and when they finally do it, then I can sit down with them, and I look, and I’m like, “Okay, so here’s a number of things that you would do for free. Let’s clump those into types of categories or activities. Now, what kind of career opportunities exist that let you do those things, and you just happen to get paid?”

[00:18:02] So, I do it backwards, right? And so, then they think, “Oh,” and it usually ends up being things like having flexibility of schedule, you know, financial freedom, helping people, being outside and, you know, being outside, not being in an office. And those things, I’m like, “You know what? That sounds like sales. And in sales, it’s any industry you want.

[00:18:20] So, whatever you wanna get into, there’s a sales component of it, and if nothing else, these skill sets will help you even if you’re an upper management.” My best job as a, as a salesperson was when I got my stepdaughter, who was 14 at the time, to agree to clean her room up, and it was her idea.

[00:18:36] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s the mark of a true professional, elite sales professional.

[00:18:40] Dena Hale: Yes, yes. I knew I, I knew I had arrived at that moment.

[00:18:44] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. You mentioned something about how the students kind of do it for us now. I love that, and I think it’s so true. Talent recognized as talent, right? Students who have a lot of potential, they recognize the talent and the students already on or in the program or on the sales competition team and they wanna be part of that

[00:19:04] and that energy kind of drives more and more energy. So, I think that’s absolutely amazing. And I think you’re also right about kinda the misconceptions people have about sales. So, I think, you know, doing your exercise kind of backwards helps them realize that they can help people, they can have flexibility, they can have all these things in a career in sales.

[00:19:24] Absolutely. You mentioned when you joined the program, and then you, you know, you couldn’t be with students in person. What were some of the biggest challenges, and maybe that was it, early on that you faced, you know, with the sales program when you got to Stetson?

[00:19:39] Dena Hale: I think for me, the biggest part was it had already started to grow momentum, and then it stopped because of what happened. And so, how do we keep that excitement and that momentum? We had smaller classes, of course, more sections, same number of students, we just had, you know, smaller groups to make it manageable.

[00:19:53] But as weird as it is, I’m gonna say, being forced to go online for whatever reason was the best thing that happened for the sales, any sales program. And so, it made our students ready for the next generation. It made us as faculty get ready for the next generation. I think the sales industry, any, any industry in sales, I think we were heading that way anyway, to at least combat some of the travel constraints and the costs associated with it.

[00:20:19] I think the online selling and being able to use the phone are things that we had forgotten about and forgotten how to do. So, it, for me, getting it started was reminding myself how we did this and educating myself how to do it more appropriately. Uh, all the things that we know are different. And again, that that was probably the biggest challenge for me, was how do we connect with people when we’re distant, when we’re so used to taking things for granted,

[00:20:42] when we don’t have that personal, “I’m great in person,” well, we don’t have that now, what do you do? And I think it made our program stronger.

[00:20:48] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s a good point. And just nowadays, everyone is just so, like, Zoom is just part of our, you know, day-to-day vernacular. So, I think it was, you know, the, there’s hindsight and some them, some silver linings in what we all went through, which is good. 

[00:21:02] Dena Hale: Yes. 

[00:21:03] Kristen Wisdorf: What do you think, you know, based on your sales classes at Stetson, all the sales classes, what are some valuable takeaways that your students can get or get outta these sales classes that they wouldn’t find maybe in other courses that aren’t related to, you know, the business school or sales?

[00:21:21] Dena Hale: I think the biggest part of what you do in a sales class is there’s a lot of hands-on, a lot of role-playing, so you get actual execution, not just head knowledge, you get muscle memory. I think what we do in the classroom is relevant to the real world, whether they’re in entrepreneurship, whether, I mean, if they’re just a manager, if they’re just at a job right now and they’re wanting to talk about getting a raise or creating some type of a, an event or wanna do fundraising, if they’re in a, anything they do, this is so relevant to all they do

[00:21:50] and so we can connect immediately where some students can’t connect with content of a class until they’re in that career field. But if we say we’re communication and helping people, if they’re in a sorority of fraternity, uh, if they’re in a sports event, there’s nothing that we’re sharing that they can’t apply almost immediately.

[00:22:06] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s so true. And, you know, sales can be nerve-wracking even if you’re, like, a seasoned professional, right? And so, getting the kind of like getting to practice in a safe environment and knocking some rust off and getting to experience it while you have coaches like you to help them through it is just, it’s so incredible

[00:22:24] and it’s preparing people in a way that, you know, a lot of business majors, marketing majors end up in sales, well, you’re preparing them in a way that didn’t really happen 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, at a lot of colleges.

[00:22:36] Dena Hale: That’s true. And, you know, we say a lot of women in the, um, in the workforce get to a certain level, and then they disappear from the workforce for a while, or they have to make adjustments because they wanna have families. Well, sales is something you can do remotely. It’s something you can do with some travel.

[00:22:50] It’s something you can do, especially now with the online. So, I’m explaining to everybody that, you know what? You don’t have to give up, you don’t have to give up your family, nor do you have to give up your career opportunities. You can have the best of both worlds now. And I think that, hopefully, will help them stop seeing the ceiling that we imagine in our head.

[00:23:05] It’s like, no, it’s just the reason we’re not in certain industries and certain levels is because we’ve decided not to be there. It’s our choice. Now, you don’t have to make that choice.

[00:23:13] Kelsie Edmonds: You know, one of the things you mentioned earlier is people who have that, like, entrepreneurial spirit wanting to get into an area like sales, and one interesting thing I, I took away kind of prepping for this in terms of, like, this entrepreneur versus entrepreneur idea. Could you explain a little bit more about that for us?

[00:24:32] Dena Hale: Yeah, so a lot of people have these really great ideas, right? They wanna take on a challenge, they wanna creatively find a solution, “Give me my parameters and then leave me alone. Don’t tell me the steps, just gimme the parameters.” And that’s how we come up with the best solutions. Sales lets you do that because you have parameters, but you get to co-produce what’s going on.

[00:24:51] Well, not every, when we think about entrepreneurial mindsets, not everybody has a high level of risk that they’re comfortable with. So, I like to say, “You know, if you’re an entrepreneur in your mind, but you don’t wanna be the one that’s responsible for keeping the lights on, and you don’t wanna necessarily not get paid well, you can do the same thing in sales because you become your own independent contractor.

[00:25:13] You just happen to be getting a salary. You happen to have a benefits package. You happen to have somebody else paying for the lights and the gas,” right? So, you get all the benefits of being an entrepreneur with the guidance that comes with being like a franchise, but you don’t have all that risk and all that overhead that goes with it.

[00:25:30] Kelsie Edmonds: You’re so right because a lot of times sales is, it’s running your own mini business within a larger business. So, all of those skills, I mean, you can be practicing and honing in on in your time while getting prepped for potentially opening up, um, your own business in the future, you know? We see a lot of people that come here to memoryBlue who say, “Hey, one day my goal is to own my own business but

[00:25:51] I need to learn a little bit more about how to market, how to talk to people, how to figure out different things within the industries that I may be targeting. How do I make a message that resonates with, you know, the people that I’m talking to?” So, I love that you have this, this background too of, it’s not even a traditional, you know, sales background in a sense here and how you got into the business world,

[00:26:11] so my biggest question kind of coming from that is, you know, what was the biggest learning opportunity that you had in terms of, like, starting off with kind of like the laundromat coffee shop business and moving into kind of this sales focused area of your life now?

[00:26:26] Dena Hale: Well, what’s crazy is it, it all happened in a different order than what you just stated it. So, when I got out of the military, um, when I chose to get out, and at the time, I had met my husband now, and I had the stepchildren, so we were like, “Okay, so it’s time to get out.” Well, they were doing their assessment of what I should be based on my experience as a linguist and interrogator and all this stuff in the military.

[00:26:45] I said, “Okay, well,” they told me it was sales. I’m like, “Okay, great.” So, I started, you know, the sales process, right? Then they said, “You should be in sales.” So, I did advertising sales, I did LTL truck sales, I did air freight sales. It’s all service related. So, I said, “I wanna be a service marketer when I’m in college.”

[00:27:00] And that’s where I went with my Ph.D. Well, my husband and I, you know, after I got my doctorate degree, we traveled to Florida to go to Nova South, Southeastern to teach. I, I, I’ve taught at Georgia Southern, and then we wanted to go back home to Illinois ’cause I had grandchildren. And when we went back, the people we bought our home from happened to have a laundromat.

[00:27:19] And I’m like, “Oh great. Passive income. Well, I’m teaching, I can have passive income,” right? It’s just a laundromat. And then I realized, “You know what? That’s a business. That is something.” So, we bought the laundromat that was already existing, that needed some updates. I said, “We can update this, and I can,” we actually be, we branded ourselves.

[00:27:36] Our hashtag was “The community’s place for laundry.” We were the only one in town. But I said, “Even if we weren’t, I want us to be the ones you choose.” So, we started branding, and we started all those things I had learned as a teacher and for my colleagues, and while I’m in the college. Mind you, this was, I had already had 10 years of teaching experience by this.

[00:27:52] So, that was in, uh, 2014 when we op, when we purchased that and made all the changes and started, we opened up a full-service laundry based on, you know, just asking people what they wanted. So, there’s some businesses in town. We started, we hired some people to do that. Who thought of having somebody sitting at the laundromat to help customers?

[00:28:08] Well, there you go. Customer service. We had some empty space next to it. Everybody kept talking about there was not any good coffee in our town. It was six miles away at the college, where the college was. I said, “Great.” So, we opened up coffee. We found some, our niche. There’s other coffee shops in town, but we have our own very unique niche.

[00:28:25] It’s what we do. It’s, we got a good supplier, we know who we are and I think that’s the difference. So, when we did the businesses, it was, “What does the community need? What can we do that’s different, and how do we brand it? And now it’s stick to that brand.” And I learned that instead of being in, instead of learning it like in the business world and bringing it in, I kind of learned it and got, like you said, learn it first,

[00:28:46] right? I got to learn from experts and, and people that were in the field and my colleagues that I worked with at the schools, and I would teach it for a while and get my feet wet, had students who owned businesses, and then we finally said, “Okay, let’s try it now.” So, I’m not really an entrepreneur. I’m more of a business owner ’cause I buy things that, I bought something that existed and, and we kind of, you know, run it from here.

[00:29:04] I just got a really good ge, really good general manager. She’s probably one of the strongest women I’ve ever met. She is handling it for us, trying to be me and my, trying to be me when I’m not there. God bless her heart. I don’t know how anybody wants, nobody wants to be me, but she’s doing a great job.

[00:29:18] She’s really running it for us. And now I’m, we’re trying to think of a way to help her be the one that owns it in the next year and a half. I’m trying to let this, I’m mentoring her to say, “Now you’re gonna own this.” We’re gonna kind of let it go. We’ve experienced, I’ve learned a lot, I’ve owned it for a while.

[00:29:31] Um, I think it’s time for me to go onto the next desk thing.

[00:29:34] Kelsie Edmonds: That is so interesting too, in terms of, like, the topic of passive income I think is such a timely topic in terms of, like, it’s something that students and young people are talking about more than I think we ever have in the past. And, I mean, you’re a little bit ahead of the curve. I know passive income has always kind of been a thing, but it’s such a large topic in today’s society.

[00:29:53] But the amazing part is, you know, in sales, you’re not only learning those skills but also, you’re earning potentials are allowing you to fund different types of hobbies that turn into, like, side businesses and passive incomes for you. And sales really, I think, sets you up in that direction for a lot of people,

[00:30:10] um, allowing them to focus on their interest.

[00:30:12] Dena Hale: You know, what, in sales, what do we do? We help our prospects or our customers or our buyers, we help them identify opportunities or emerging opportunities, right? We help them see where they can be or where they need to be, and then we help them get there. Well, if we are doing that for other people, all we have to do is say, “Well, now why don’t I, I’m, I see opportunities everywhere now.”

[00:30:35] I never notice them the same way, but my brain works this way now because it’s what I do. It’s what I teach, it’s what I help people do. So, now you, you see it, and it makes it a lot easier. And you don’t have to give up your career because maybe you see somebody that you can mentor who’s got this great idea, you see the opportunity, you help them reach it.

[00:30:53] Passive income, you’re a silent partner. You’re part of that opportunity.

[00:30:59] Kelsie Edmonds: You’re so right. It’s the way that we as salespeople train our brains, you know, when we’re in conversations with prospects and potential clients, like, there are things that we have to pick up on in that moment. And not only does that help us in our careers, but in every other aspect of our life, you’re, you’re so right there.

[00:31:14] And it’s a skill that, you know, I wish I could have had sooner, but I’m so happy that that’s one that I’ve developed now. Certainly, making better choices and, and, you know, smart choices, really, at the end of the day.

[00:31:23] Dena Hale: Yeah. Yeah. I’m 53, and I’m just now figuring this stuff out. I really wish I’d have known this 30 years ago. Exactly.

[00:31:30] Kelsie Edmonds: Right.

[00:31:31] Kristen Wisdorf: I am curious, you know, you talk a lot about your students and the women that you mentor and all the things that you’ve done at Stetson and, and through the years as an educator. What brought you to education in the first place?

[00:31:46] Dena Hale: Okay. So, I was gonna remember, go back to the story, I was going to be this international jet setter that changed the world, right? I fell in love with some, with a young man who had some children. He was a divorcee. He had three children, and he lived in Southern Illinois. And I suddenly, you know, I went to China for my internship.

[00:32:04] I went there six weeks, said, “Bye, see ya.” You know? I needed that to finish college. And I missed, I had three times before that I was in China, loved it. No problem. That last time I was miserable. I bought things for the kids. I thought, “You know what? My brain has changed. My goals have changed.” So, I met this man.

[00:32:21] I’m like, “Oh my gosh. This is my life now. This is where I’m gonna be.” And I wasn’t, it was okay. I was happy. It was a choice I was willing to make, and I was happy. And I thought, “Well, I can do sales there.” So, I started doing advertising sales, and as I was going through that, I, I realized I needed more. I had gotten bored very quickly.

[00:32:39] Remember I went from the military to college to, you know, this advertising sales, I said, “Oh, no, I need more. This isn’t gonna work.” And then I got a call from some, remember I told you I’ve had some great mentors, well, not all of them are females, some of them were males. The individuals that were my undergraduate professors, one female, one male, they both reached out to me and said, “Hey, we’ve got an opportunity for you

[00:33:00] and it involved taking your MBA and your Ph.D. and kind of squashing ’em together.” So, all of my electives for my master’s program became my first semester of my Ph.D. program. And it came with a scholarship, and it came with a TA position, once RGA position, once I got to the Ph.D. side. And, and so it was almost handed to me.

[00:33:19] It was like, “Hey, here, we’ve got this for you. What do you think?” And I thought, “There’s no way this man, I, I had only been married six months by the way, he knew me as a student, married me, and six months later, I’m saying, “Hey, can I go back to school?” And I was blessed. He was like, “Absolutely.” And that’s how I got into academia.

[00:33:36] Kristen Wisdorf: I am curious, what type of professor do you think you are? Or what do you think is your, like, teaching superpower?

[00:33:43] Dena Hale: Oh goodness. My teaching superpower? Super energy that students will tell you. Nonstop, right? I don’t care if it’s eight in the morning or six o’clock in the evening, I crash when I get home. But I think for me, as I am genuine in the fact that my students come first. Plain and simple. I treat them as, you know, we don’t like to say our students are customers, right?

[00:34:01] Because then they’re in control. Well, why don’t we see them as still people? My students are first, and that’s the same idea, right? Customer-centric. I practice what I preach.

[00:34:10] Kristen Wisdorf: I love that. What, you know, when you think about all the experience you’ve had, traveling the world, being in the military, being a professor, advertising, sales, and I’m sure there’s more there that we didn’t talk about, what experience do you think most prepared you to be in sales, right? Whether as a sales professor or indivi, like, as a salesperson on your own, like, what do you think is, like, is there, like, a pivotal experience that you believe really prepared you?

[00:34:42] Dena Hale: I don’t know that I can identify one pivotal thing. Like I said, since I was born, the joke was I’m always going to you say, “Hi, how are you? I’ve got this cause that I really want to.” I, I think it was probably my grandma, I would say that did it because she said that no matter how, her statements were, “No matter how good you think you are, there’s always someone who’s better.

[00:35:03] And no matter how bad you are or you think you are, there’s always somebody who’s a little bit worse off.” So, always be grateful for what you have and always try to help someone that you can identify that might need something. Don’t be afraid to ask them if you can help. Growing up with that, I think I’ve been primed for sales from the beginning.

[00:35:23] Kelsie Edmonds: That’s so crazy that you say that because my father actually told me the exact same thing, and now, I’m over here questioning. Okay. I’d like to know like of anyone listening to this podcast, how many of you were raised on, like, a similar mindset or were told that and ended up, like, moving in the sales direction?

[00:35:38] Because I think it just, it drives that competitive nature in us to be like, “All right. I’m gonna prove to you that I can do this, and I can show up, and I can be that person.”

[00:35:46] Dena Hale: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:35:48] Yeah. I mean, I like to compete with myself, and I like healthy competition with others, but for me, I guess when I was in the military, one thing I learned was I had a sergeant who said, “If one of your soldiers gets ranked or gets promoted at a rank above you, you’ve done your job.” And so, it kind of gave me that mindset too.

[00:36:05] So, now in the classroom, I tell my students, “If you get the job of your dreams and you make a whole lot more money than I ever thought of, I’ve done my job.”

[00:36:13] Kristen Wisdorf: I love that, especially if I, I’m sure a lot of your students are in or, um, they will end up in sales management and it’s kind of the same. It’s like, if I can have a team of folks who were better salespeople than I ever personally was, then wow, that is the mark of a great leader.

[00:36:30] Dena Hale: Exactly.

[00:36:32] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. And it just kind of goes back to kinda how we started the conversation.

[00:36:35] You can get into this career of sales, professional selling, and give back and help people at the same time.

[00:36:43] Dena Hale: Absolutely. And, and if you’re not doing it to help people, if you’re just doing it to help yourself, then you might wanna rethink that as a career. I suggest getting into something else.

[00:36:52] Kristen Wisdorf: Great point. Good feedback. So, we wanna hit you with some kind of just fast, fun questions. I guess just, I guess, answer the first thing that comes to your mind.

[00:37:02] Um.

[00:37:02] Dena Hale: Oh no. Oh, no.

[00:37:04] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay. Which feeling is stronger for you? Is it loving to win or hating to lose?

[00:37:12] Dena Hale: Hating to lose.

[00:37:14] Kristen Wisdorf: Ooh, I like it. That’s my favorite answer, but I’m curious why that’s yours.

[00:37:19] Dena Hale: Because if I lose, my guess is somebody else loses too, and that means I’ve let somebody else down. If my idea is that I’m here to help somebody and I didn’t do that, then somebody else didn’t get the benefit of me doing it right either.

[00:37:31] Kristen Wisdorf: Wow. That’s good. What is your favorite book?

[00:37:35] Dena Hale: Oh, I don’t know if you’ll let me say it on here. My favorite book is the Bible.

[00:37:38] Kristen Wisdorf: All right, I like it. It’s all welcome on this pod. When you were a little kid, I know you said, like, your family always said you, you were always selling, right, from day one. I’m curious, though, what was your first job? Like, the first job you ever had or the first job you ever, the thing you wanted to be when you grew up, when you were little?

[00:38:00] Dena Hale: When I was little, I wanted to be a congressman. I was gonna go to law school, so that ’cause I thought, I remember hearing people say Congress people are making laws, and they don’t know what laws are. So, I was like, “Okay.” So, I wanted to be a lawyer, and I wanted to do, so I guess I was kind of selling, right?

[00:38:13] And so, I just remember always wanting to be in a place where I could influence others in a positive way. And when I actually did have my first job, I was 15 and a half. There’s a store kinda like, it’s kinda like a Walmart, but back home when I was growing up, it’s called Smitty’s, and it had, you know, food, it had a jewelry department, it had clothing, it had everything like a super Walmart at the time.

[00:38:33] And I had walked in, and it was like Christmas, I think it was a Christmas holiday job interview, and I could get it ’cause I was almost 16. And the gentleman said, “Well, it was a great interview. What do you want? You know, what job do you want?” And this is my first thing I remember about questions and answers.

[00:38:49] “He said, where, what department do you wanna work in?” I said, “I wanna work in the jewelry department.” And I remember him specifically looking at me, and he says, “We don’t typically hire temporary and young people who don’t have any experience for the jewelry department. I said, “You didn’t ask me where I should work.

[00:39:06] You asked me where I wanted to work.” I got to work in the jewelry department. I was, it was great. And so, now, anytime someone asks me a question, if they don’t like my answer, I’m like, “Well, that’s not what you asked me.” So, as a young woman, I think it’s clear we better say what we mean, mean what we say and stand by it, and don’t be apologetic.

[00:39:23] Kelsie Edmonds: I love that. So, you know, you’ve stood out your entire life. Mentors are obviously seeing you and, and wanting to chat with you. Um, you’re standing out. So, I’m curious, let’s go back to high school. What was your high school superlative? Like, what were you deemed as, Dena?

[00:39:37] Dena Hale: I’m actually in the, in our yearbook, my senior yearbook. I’m listed as the worst driver, and that’s I, my claim to fame. Thank You. 

[00:39:45] Kelsie Edmonds: That is great. 

[00:39:45] Kristen Wisdorf: That is really good. I will say mine was also driving-related, but I’m not proud of mine. Mine was most likely to lie their way out of a speeding ticket, which I don’t even know how I got that, but.

[00:39:58] Dena Hale: How funny. Your sales skills, of course.

[00:40:00] Kristen Wisdorf: I guess. Which role in your whole experience has been the hardest do you think? 

[00:40:06] Dena Hale: Being a stepmom. Because I loved them as my own, but I had to remember that their mom, even though they lived with me and their dad, their mom was still very active in their lives and I ha, I loved them as my own and, and I wanted them as my own ’cause I don’t have any of my own, technically I have them, but I had to remember the, in respect of their mother’s role.

[00:40:25] So, that was the hardest for me, I would say.

[00:40:27] Kristen Wisdorf: Absolutely. And I think it goes, it’s a good reminder for everyone that we have roles professionally and personally, and they all kind of work together, and we can learn lessons from both, so.

[00:40:38] Dena Hale: Yeah.

[00:40:39] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay. This is one of my favorites. If you could have a billboard anywhere in the world, where would it be, and what would it say?

[00:40:46] Dena Hale: Oh, that’s a good question. Anywhere, any, just one location? Is that all I’m limited, limited to? I can’t just put it on campus? 

[00:40:52] Kristen Wisdorf: I don’t know. Actually, you know what? This is your world, with your billboards. We’re just living in it.

[00:40:59] Dena Hale: I would put it on every single campus. Every junior college, every college. Every private university, public university, I would have some billboard, and it would say, “We see you. See yourself.”

[00:41:12] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s a great reminder. Good.

[00:41:14] Kelsie Edmonds: I love that, sticking true, like, to yourself there. What is the most interesting place that you’ve traveled to? I mean, you’ve, you’ve been a ton of places, so what’s been the most interesting to you and, and why?

[00:41:25] Dena Hale: Ooh, it’s a Thai. I’m gonna say it is Posan, Korea, and probably Southern China, Guangzhou. You know, I’ve been to Shanghai, I’ve been to Beijing and all these different places, but to me, those two locations were more of the rural areas, like, when you think of, like, old, where they, there wasn’t anything about the country or about the policies or about the government,

[00:41:47] they were just people, and it was so just real, and they were so loving and open, and I think I got to see human nature, not Americans and Chinese and, you know, people from Turkey and people from Canada and people from Mexico. I didn’t see that. I got to see human nature, and that helped me develop how I see people.

[00:42:10] It’s, there’s a human, we’re human first, right? All those other stuff are other things, but we’re human first, and there’s more things similar than there are differences.

[00:42:18] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, you just got to, I guess, experience people. That’s great.

[00:42:23] Dena Hale: Yeah. And that’s what sales is, right? You’re experiencing if you love people, you need to be in sales. If you don’t love people, you don’t need to be in sales.

[00:42:30] Kristen Wisdorf: I am Amen to that. I think that is the perfect little cherry on top of this podcast pie. We appreciate you joining us, Dena. You have had such a unique, kinda, like, life and experience. You live so many places, you’ve met so many people, and your students are very lucky to get to, I guess, experience that through you.

[00:42:49] Thank you for joining us.

[00:42:51] Dena Hale: Thank you very much for this opportunity. I greatly appreciate it.