Campus Series: Mark Johnston and Greg Marshall – A New Approach to Teaching Sales
Working in sales is extremely hands-on and therefore the training and education prior should be no different. Greg Marshall and Mark Johnston have been a witness to the way interactive and immersive sales education experiences can lay the foundation for pro-level selling.
Guest-At-A-Glance
💡 Name: Greg Marshall and Mark Johnston
💡What they do: Greg: Professor of Marketing and Strategy ; Mark: Professor of Marketing and Ethics
💡Company: Rollins College
💡Noteworthy: Greg Marshall is an academic with a background in retail and consumer packaged goods (CPG) sales. He transitioned to academia after developing a passion for sales management and training. He has been involved in the academic field for a considerable time, focusing on sales-related research.
Mark Johnston started his career in the workforce, developing an interest in photography and later working for Canon. He transitioned to academia after being encouraged by a department chair during his MBA. He has a significant focus on teaching sales and sales management courses, often to students who are already involved in sales or marketing.
Key Insights
Sales Education: A Leverage for Career Success
Greg and Mark emphasize the importance of sales education in shaping successful careers. They argue that sales programs provide valuable experiences and skills that can give individuals a significant advantage in their careers. One of the most critical skills they highlight is effective interpersonal communication, which they believe is the essence of leadership and a key factor in reaching the top of any profession. This insight underscores the value of sales education and its role in fostering successful leaders.
Sales in the Modern Era: A Strategic and Exciting Field
The guests discuss the evolution of sales, particularly in the B2B sector. They note that sales have become more exciting and strategic, with a focus on conveying value propositions to customers. They also highlight the importance of broadening skill sets in sales, emphasizing that successful sales involve more than just analytical or communication skills. It’s about adding value for the customer and looking at sales strategically.
Sales Education: Shaping Careers and Personal Lives
Greg and Mark share their experiences of seeing the impact of their sales courses on students’ lives. They discuss the rewarding experience of seeing students broaden their skill sets, apply what they’ve learned strategically, and succeed in their careers. They also note the strong alumni network and the positive stories shared by former students, further highlighting the transformative power of sales education.
Episode Highlights
From Retail to Academia: Greg’s Career Transition
Greg shares his journey from working in the retail business with Target to transitioning into academia. He discusses his experiences in the consumer packaged goods space with companies like Menon and Warner-Lambert, and how these experiences ignited his passion for sales and sales management.
“I got the bug by working in the retail business, though, to learn more about what happened on the other side. And so we would, of course, have various salespeople come in, and they’d be working with us, and we would have that type of relationship that we understand.”
B2B Sales: A Strategic and Exciting Field
Greg and Mark discuss the evolution of B2B sales, noting that it has become more strategic and exciting. They highlight the importance of conveying value propositions to customers and broadening skillsets beyond just analytical or communication skills.
“Is to me more exciting now than it was before because you’re dealing with a value proposition that I, as the salesperson, have to be able to convey to the customer.”
Developing Sales Curriculum: A Balancing Act
Mark discusses the challenges of developing a sales curriculum. He emphasizes the importance of teaching a broad range of skills and the need for practical application in sales education. He also highlights the rewarding experience of seeing students broaden their skill sets and apply what they’ve learned strategically.
“One of the several things has come into play here. One, when you look at the science around sales, there’s quite a bit of science around the interaction of the human relationship and the value add of the sales function.”
The Birth of Sales Programs in Academia
Mark discusses the growth of sales programs in academia. He notes that these programs started because deans and administrators recognized the need for sales education for business school graduates. He also shares his journey from working in the workforce to transitioning into academia.
“The growth in sales programs around the country began because the deans and other administrators began to look at people graduating out of the schools of business. We’re getting jobs in sales. And at the same time, there were academics that were doing more and more research in this area. So there were people that were interested in sales, doing research in sales. The students that were coming into the colleges of business were interested in sales, and the final piece of it was companies were looking to hire people that had some background, some experience in sales as opposed to coming in just fresh and green.”
Transcript:
[00:00:04] Chris Corcoran: Dr. Greg Marshall and Dr. Mark Johnson. Thank you for hosting us. Uh, tech Sales is for Hustler’s Campus edition. I’m, I’m, I’m excited to be at Rollins College, the beautiful Rollins College, uh, in Winter Park, Florida at the 12th Sales Educations Academy as you all are hosting.
[00:00:45] And I wanted to, if you could share with the listeners a little bit about, um, that program and what it does and how it, and how it started.
[00:00:52] Mark Johnston: Sure thing.
[00:00:53] Greg Marshall: Thanks. It’s a pleasure to be here. Yeah. And Sales Educators Academy is unique. It’s really one of a kind. Uh, it was hatched among three people. It was Dr.
[00:01:04] Mark Johnston who’s here with me, myself and a fellow named Dr. Left Bonnie, who’s up at Florida State University. The idea was that in academic circles we were doing lots and lots of conferences and events, celebrating and engaging on research in sales and sales management, but we weren’t doing anything in the field that really focused on that all important piece for the future of sales.
[00:01:29] Talking about how to do a better job of teaching sales and engaging students, and so it’s such a privilege to be part of this particular event. Mark.
[00:01:39] Mark Johnston: Yeah, I mean this, it, it grew out, as Greg mentioned, it, it grew out of a need that it existed. I mean, we, we’d all been attending scholarly conferences and learning about each other’s research.
[00:01:50] But the reality is that teaching sales, uh, and being good at teaching sales was not something that it, you know, it’s a unique teaching experience. Mm-hmm. And people need to be trained. They’re often coming in from, uh, From a business, they’re there. There may not have been academically or scholarly trained, and they’re given this course to teach and how do you do it well?
[00:02:11] And so there are so many unique aspects of the course that when the idea was, uh, discussed, it’s like, wow, this is a great idea. And we just carried it forward from there. Great.
[00:02:23] Chris Corcoran: And this is the 12th, 12th time you’ve done it. How many, how many professors are gonna be represented?
[00:02:30] Mark Johnston: Wow. I think we’ve got
[00:02:31] Greg Marshall: over 60.
[00:02:32] Coming Yeah. To this event. It’s a truly remarkable number. Uh, when both, when both Mark and I started out in, in academia and both of us have experience in, in industry and sales and sales management before we became professors, but when we started out, you could probably count on maybe two hands the number of faculty in marketing departments who really were dedicating.
[00:02:56] Their world to sales. And boy, you fast forward now and let me tell you what, the sales and sales management area within marketing, that’s the hottest area within the entire field of marketing right now. Wouldn’t you agree? Oh,
[00:03:09] Mark Johnston: absolutely. I mean, when you look at, uh, where, where the interest is in academic programs and marketing and in the college of business, The sales area is, is frequently in many colleges, number one, in large part because that’s where the students are graduating and going into that area.
[00:03:26] Mm-hmm. So we’ve seen that with the growth of the, of the schools or the sales courses and so forth in many universities, uh, around the country and dedicated sales programs around the
[00:03:36] Chris Corcoran: country. Right. Great. Well, why don’t we, we talk a little bit about your, your, uh, industry experience. Mm-hmm. And I wanna, I wanna talk about the history of the sales program here.
[00:03:45] Greg Marshall: Oh, that sounds great. Well, you know, so many of us that are in the sales space as academics, uh, actually started out, you know, doing things in industry and you certainly find that’s reversed in a lot of the other fields within marketing. But, uh, yeah, I started out in the retail business a long time ago and I worked for a little company called Target.
[00:04:06] And Target kind of put me through school. Which was a great experience and I was in what more or less today would be called a management development program. But at that time I was just working and I was learning and they were helping me understand what it was all about. And I, and it was a great kickoff.
[00:04:23] Um, I got the bug by working in the retail business though, to, to learn more about what happened on the other side. And so we would of course have various salespeople come in and they’d be working with us and we would, you know, that type of relationship that we understand. You know, I was young and trying to figure out the world of business and I thought, gee, that job sounds pretty interesting.
[00:04:45] And the more I got to know some of those sales folks coming in, the more I realized, you know, once I get this degree, I’m really interested in going out and seeing if I could find a similar position. And lo and behold, you know, I finished up my bachelor’s degree, started looking around, and the first job I ever got, uh, outside of the target thing, was working for a company in the consumer packaged goods space called, uh, Menon.
[00:05:09] Menon is now part of Colgate Palm Olive. Mm-hmm. So, uh, that was great. And then went on and worked for another company called Warner Lambert. And you’re, you may think now all these companies I’ve worked for are out of business and something must have been wrong. Actually, I have to tell you, Warner Lambert was terrific and they ended up kind of being acquired by several different companies that, that acquired parts of their product line, probably the largest part of Warner Lambert’s and Johnson and Johnson now.
[00:05:37] But I, I love that space. And so for me, it, it was pure joy to have the opportunity to, I. Spend some time in the industry learning about sales, getting to become a sales manager. Um, that was a really exciting time in my
[00:05:52] Chris Corcoran: career. It sounds like you got both the retail experience and the C p g sales experience, so you kind of got to see it from both sides.
[00:05:58] I
[00:05:58] Greg Marshall: was lucky because I don’t think I would’ve understood C P G if I had not been in the retail business.
[00:06:04] Chris Corcoran: Right. And then what ultimately led you to academia?
[00:06:08] Greg Marshall: You know, I, I think like a lot of us in the sales academic community right now, I just got the bug to kind of think this way. I love sales management, I love working with my salespeople.
[00:06:19] Enjoy the training piece. Hmm. Those sound like something that a professor might do, working with really bright young people all the time. So it was very easy for me to make that decision. And, uh, yep. I, I just, just made the decision, went back and. Uh, ended up, uh, getting my PhD in marketing, did a sales related dissertation.
[00:06:39] And, you know, I’ve been, uh, I’ve been involved in this field now as an academic for quite a while. Not as long as my colleague though. What about
[00:06:47] Mark Johnston: you, Dr. Johnson? Well, I came, um, to this part of my career, uh, through the workforce as well. Okay. I, um, developed an interest in photography when I was in high school.
[00:06:58] Okay. And, um, maintained that interest through college when I graduated. I thought, well, how can I perhaps blend this? And I got a job with, uh, cannon, ah, uh, and sold something that people don’t really use anymore, called cameras, uh, back in, uh, the, the seventies and eighties. And so I was there and, and uh, was being kind of groomed for management and so forth, and at that time thought I’d go back and get my M B A and.
[00:07:24] Uh, and actually my thought at that point was to, to go back into some area of photography and, and one of those companies, if not can, but somebody like it. Mm-hmm. And, um, the, my, the department chair, uh, where I was, he’s like, did you ever think about a career as an academic? Uh, and I’m like, well, no, not really.
[00:07:45] Mm-hmm. But he kept like, you should check it out. So I did and, um, went on and, uh, it, it seemed like a good. Good change and, and I pursued the PhD and I, my PhD’s from Texas a&m. Okay. And I worked with, uh, one of the early kind of pioneer sales researchers down there at a&m, and my dissertation was in the sales area.
[00:08:08] And. That’s how, uh, that’s how I got started in all of this.
[00:08:12] Chris Corcoran: Wow. And then you guys met
[00:08:14] Mark Johnston: here.
[00:08:15] Greg Marshall: Well, I have to add something because, and I don’t want to make my friend Dr. Justin feel old ’cause he’s not, we’re not that distance in age. But, um, when I was in my doctoral program and I was at Oklahoma State, um, I kept reading all these articles in sales, right.
[00:08:32] And I’m reading different journals and every once in a while our article would turn up then. And, and, and a few years after by this guy, mark double get Johnston. And I’m thinking, you know, this guy is into some really interesting stuff. And I, I would never have imagined that years later I’d get a call from, from Mark years later saying, you know, Hey Greg, we’ve got an opening here at
[00:08:56] the Rumer School at Rollins. Is that something you might be interested in? So I do have you to thank Yeah. Well, very much for two things. One, as a student, I loved your stuff and secondly, you called and asked me to join me. I, I’m glad you picked up the call and it was free cell phone.
[00:09:15] Chris Corcoran: And then talk about the, the sales program here, because when I was in college, 25 years ago, I’d wanted to be in sales.
[00:09:22] But back then, largely sales was like a four letter word on college campuses. And these programs, have, you guys are pioneers here starting these programs. How did they, how did they even start here?
[00:09:35] Mark Johnston: Well, I think that, um, I. The growth in sales programs around the country Yeah. Uh, began because the deans and other administrators began to look at people graduating out of the, the schools of business.
[00:09:50] Mm-hmm. Were getting jobs in sales. Right. And at the same time, there were academics. That were doing more and more research in this area. So you, you, there were people that were interested in sales, doing research, in sales. There, the students that were coming into the colleges of business were interested in sales and, and, and the final piece of it was companies were looking to hire people.
[00:10:17] Mm-hmm. That had. Some background, some experience in sales as opposed to coming in just fresh and green. Right. So you had all of these factors coming together way back in the early, even the early two thousands. Mm-hmm. Uh, that led to the creation of sales programs around the country at Toledo and Baylor and mm-hmm.
[00:10:37] All these other schools where, um, they began to, to meld the interest of their faculty with what was happening with their students, the interest of their students. Mm-hmm. And also, The companies that were hiring these students were saying, can we, um, can you provide us with students that are better trained in this area?
[00:10:56] Right.
[00:10:56] Chris Corcoran: Right. And then how did you all start the program here?
[00:10:59] Greg Marshall: Well, that, that’s a really curious thing because the Crummer Graduate School of Business is graduate. Okay. And so the, the interesting thing that Mark and I have had fun with over the years is what does it mean for somebody who’s back for an mba?
[00:11:15] Mm-hmm. To. The sales knowledge in the sales community. And I think a big part of what drove us to really bring courses in related to that space is the fact that that, uh, you know, knock on wood, uh, mark and I started out a few years after. We had kind of gotten to know each other a little bit, uh, working on writing sales textbooks.
[00:11:39] Okay. And so, um, we inherited a book that was the number one selling sales management book for years and years by an author team called Churchill Ford and Walker. And Mark was asked to come on that book by then. He did. And then a few years later, you know, I kind of got this phone call. Phone calls can bring surprising things.
[00:12:01] And he, uh, says, yeah, you know, I was thinking, would you be interested in working with me on this book? And I think I thought about it for about 15 seconds. And so what really got us going here was the fact that, that we had that experience then, then, then we were able to work here together. Mm-hmm. And so by working here together, we built.
[00:12:21] Some, you know, we built some fortresses around the sales base in the M B A level, and it’s just worked out really great for us. We’ve, you know, we’ve got the mm-hmm. The, the sales management course that now you’re teaching for us regularly. Right. It’s just, that’s one of the two most popular courses in the entire Commerce School of Business.
[00:12:38] Mark Johnston: Wow.
[00:12:39] Chris Corcoran: Yeah. So your courses are exclusively for master’s
[00:12:43] Mark Johnston: here at
[00:12:43] Greg Marshall: Crummer? Yes. Okay. Rollins College does have an undergraduate program that’s very robust as well. Okay. And so we’ve got a fellow named Bill Kroll. Okay. That, uh, is also attending Sales Educators Academy with us. And Bill is been teaching on the sales side over in the undergraduate.
[00:13:00] And so I see with a very similar and of all things, Bill’s background was also in sales. He was at C P G. And was with Colgate. Okay. For years and years and years. I see. So we’ve just got this really unusual mm-hmm. Triangulation of folks here who really care a lot about the field. And personally I think it’s infectious because once the students figured out how great your course is, I mean, you’ve got like a waiting list now.
[00:13:23] Mark Johnston: Yeah, it is. Um, It’s a very popular course, and I, I think that, again, it’s quite practical for the students. Mm-hmm. Uh, and many of the students are in sales or sales management positions coming back to get their M B A. Okay. So they look at the sales management course, says, Hey, this is, this is a great kind of, uh, add-on for my overall MBA experience.
[00:13:46] Right.
[00:13:46] Chris Corcoran: And it’s something they, they can apply immediately. Yeah. Immediately. And so your, your classes, how many students are we talking? I’m trying to get a sense, a sense of the size.
[00:13:55] Mark Johnston: We’re, we’re, you know, we’re a, a small part it college. Yeah. And, uh, and the M B A program, uh, this elective in particular usually runs around 25, 30 students.
[00:14:06] Chris Corcoran: Okay. Per, per section. I
[00:14:08] Mark Johnston: see. Which is for, for a sales management class is, is kind of a good size because, uh, there’s a lot of team projects and a lot of, uh, you know, when you get a class that’s too big, it really sometimes limits what you can do with the class. Mm-hmm.
[00:14:23] Chris Corcoran: Uh, so the question I have for you is sales, um, is very practical where you have to apply it.
[00:14:30] And I, I would think that developing curriculum, and I know we talk a little bit about that over the next couple of days, is how do you take something abstract and teach it, uh, something, you know, you, when you’re, when you’re doing role plays, the role plays never seem to go exactly like a real sales call.
[00:14:45] And so how do you guys deal with that in your, in, in how you teach in the curriculum that you, you write
[00:14:50] Mark Johnston: and. Well, um, it, that’s a great question by the way, because I think that was, that’s kind of one of the initial reactions that, that people for a long time had. Sure. In the teaching of sales courses.
[00:15:02] Definitely. Um, and I, one of the several things have come into play here. One, I mean, when you, when you actually look at the science around sales, there’s, there’s quite a bit of science around the interaction of the human relationship and the value add of the sales function. Mm-hmm. And that that research has been, you know, back in the eighties, nineties, and continues on.
[00:15:26] So what people have come to realize is, is that professional selling requires a very specific set of skills that, uh, Quite honestly are, are quite challenging for people to not only have, but also learn from and learn to do better. So, uh, as it goes to many careers where you can, you know, you, if you have great analytical skills or you have a certain set of skillset here, you can be successful.
[00:15:51] But in sales you need a broad range of, of skills. And today, particularly in professional selling, Uh, in the business to business area, you’ve gotta have great analytical skills. You’ve gotta have great communication skills, uh, and you gotta have great relationship skills. Mm-hmm. And these are all things that, that you can teach and, and train people to do better.
[00:16:12] And this is why I think you’ve seen this explosive growth mm-hmm. In sales training programs at the university level. Because, uh, again, as we were mentioning, companies realize that this is something that needs to be trained, that people can, and it helps them, but at the same time, there’s been curriculum developed that can convey this in a very organized, logical way that the students can learn and, and, and practice inside these sales training.
[00:16:37] Mm-hmm.
[00:16:39] Greg Marshall: One of the things I think that I’ve learned through this process, especially joining the Salesforce management book at that time, is, uh, this field has evolved like crazy the last 20 years. It’s nothing like when we really started out working on that book. Right, right. And, um, mark and I also, um, A few years into things working together, decided that one of the problems out there for undergrad or any level of sales, uh, courses was the fact that, that there were problems with the books.
[00:17:09] Because for the, I’m talking about now for the selling book, not sales management. Mm-hmm. Because to your point, it’s all about doing. Doing, doing, doing. Because just reading a traditional textbook on sales is to me kind of anathema. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But we just decided that one day we would kind of knock on the door of our publisher and say, you know, we’ve got this book.
[00:17:30] Did you ever think about also, I. Bringing in a, a sales book, but something that would be different and something that would be very interactive. Mm-hmm. Something that would inspire folks, whether they’re teaching undergraduate sales students or they’re teaching professionals at the M B A level to really get the experience in working.
[00:17:50] Within the different pieces of sales. And so we, we ended up coming out with this contemporary selling book, and a lot of that has driven what we’ve done in the years since. Mm-hmm. Because both of us have had so many opportunities based on that book to, uh, con I think to, in whatever way we could contribute to this change mm-hmm.
[00:18:10] In selling training away from, you know, here’s the traditional textbook, read it, take a test. Right. To our book is almost 100% interactive.
[00:18:18] Chris Corcoran: Okay. And then how do, do they take tests or how, how do you, how do you, how do your teach your students show that
[00:18:27] Mark Johnston: you, they wanted, well, I wanna
[00:18:28] Greg Marshall: give a test in personal selling course.
[00:18:30] Okay. No, I would want ’em to demonstrate their skillset. Okay. And I would evaluate that on some kind of criteria. I see. And that, that’s what we tried to do. Right, right, with the book.
[00:18:40] Mark Johnston: Yes. I mean, the, the, and again, you know, you’re separating out kind of the sales. Curriculum. Mm-hmm. Sales courses from sales management courses, which can be, you know, in, in, there’s very specific content around managing people and all the other skills.
[00:18:54] You need to be a good manager. Mm-hmm. That lends itself probably a little more to exams. Mm-hmm. In the sales course. Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, faculty all over the country can do it however they wish to do it. Sure. But, um, I think sales programs that are very effective and very successful, and I think that’s what is gonna happen this week in the sales educator, uh, academy, is to help people.
[00:19:17] Uh, make this learning of teaching sales interactive and, and an active learning experience for students. I think sales courses that are a faculty member standing up there and talking are probably the least effective. Mm-hmm. You want to create projects and experiences for the students where they’re, they’re actually able to, to take these skill sets in and practice them and learn ’em.
[00:19:42] That’s really how they’re gonna benefit
[00:19:43] Chris Corcoran: from it. Right, right. So you talked about the evolution of the last 20 years. What have you seen from your students? Has it, have there been any sort of change with kinda like the rise of technology? I mean, what have you seen? Well,
[00:19:54] Greg Marshall: it’s huge and one of the things I’ll bring up there is the fact that finance students, mm-hmm.
[00:19:59] Both undergraduate and in our M B A program are some of the students that are most into taking sales related courses. Really? Mm-hmm. Yep. Because they have figured out, Finance isn’t just all about sitting there and calculating numbers that the vast majority of people in finance are in positions where they have to be dealing with human beings.
[00:20:20] Mm-hmm. And usually they’re fairly high level interaction. Mm-hmm. So that, I love that. Yep. Because it. You know, sales has always had this, and I think we can all talk about this openly, right? Because we’re all interested and in sales, but over, over the decade, sales in the past had kind of a hangdog sort of thing.
[00:20:38] Mm-hmm. Which of course was never valid. Mm-hmm. But fast forward to 2023. When you’ve got people that are, are, you know, supposedly finance majors that are whatever, really realizing that what they’re doing is human interaction and they need that interpersonal skillset coming and flock into these sales courses.
[00:20:58] To me, that pretty much says it. I think sales is now very, very heavily accepted. Mm-hmm. Whereas even 20 years ago Right. You’d still see people kind of turning up their nose a little bit going, eh, I, I don’t think that’s for me. I, I’ll take a marketing course or. Whatever, but now it is not like that. Right.
[00:21:15] Well,
[00:21:15] Chris Corcoran: what, what have you seen from the changes in just your, your students, their skills? Like with the, um, in, like my kids, they don’t, they don’t talk to me. They text me. Right, right. So, like, have you seen anything like that with, with, with your skills?
[00:21:28] Mark Johnston: Well, you know, young people today, if, if we’re talking about the students, kind of the traditional, uh, undergraduate college students, so you’re talking 18, 19 to early twenties.
[00:21:38] Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. Um, obviously, Universally, they’re more tech savvy. Sure. Uh, this mirrors by the way, the, the use of technology actually out there in sales. Right. So I think what we’ve seen happen is that their use of technology is much more kind of social media driven. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that happens in in sales courses now is, is helping them realize that that technology and sales is.
[00:22:06] Is is different, right? We’re using technology in a different way. And uh, it’s not just, uh, your Instagram account, right? Or, or whatever. Um, we’re going to use technology through analytics or through other communication tools to drive that relationship. But in general, what we see is course young people are tech savvy.
[00:22:27] Uh, but, but funneling that, challenging that and helping them understand how technology needs to be leveraged in the sales process mm-hmm. Is something that sales courses can do. Very effective.
[00:22:38] Chris Corcoran: Gotcha. And so with your sales management course at the M B A level and your, your other courses, what do you do to promote it?
[00:22:45] It doesn’t sound, doesn’t sound like you have a hard time getting students. Sounds like there’s a waiting list that didn’t happen overnight. What were you able to do to kind of build up a little bit of a reputation? Well, you know, when,
[00:22:56] Mark Johnston: when courses become popular, I think there, there’s a lot of reason for that.
[00:23:00] One might be the faculty member or, or whatever. Sure, of course. Yeah, of course.
[00:23:05] Greg Marshall: There are a lot of reasons. So you put me in there and it’ll dry,
[00:23:10] Mark Johnston: but the, uh, because you got the sales management. I did. I did. No, I. One of the primary kind of, uh, reasons why we’ve seen growth, uh, in the sales management and, and that area here at, at Rollins and at prom is the interest driven by, by students.
[00:23:30] Um, either they see where this o offers them some great opportunity as a young person or, um, they, they’re in it as a professional, as a working professional, maybe in the marketing area or in the sales area. Or they’re interacting with, with their customers in a way where they need to have understand relationships better.
[00:23:53] They need to be able to communicate more effectively. They need the analytical tool, uh, tools that, that you can get in as a sales manager. So, um, at the end of the day, I think the primary driver of, of the growth and the interest has been student led. Uh, in terms of, you know, what we see happening at that level, but at the same time mm-hmm.
[00:24:15] I think there’s been a huge growth in interest at the company level, hiring people out. And, and so people look at that and they go, well, hey, this is an area where, where I have great career opportunities.
[00:24:27] Chris Corcoran: Gotcha. So a little bit of, a little bit of word of mouth.
[00:24:29] Mark Johnston: Yeah, word of mouth. And, and, you know, they’re, they’re out there looking for jobs and mm-hmm.
[00:24:34] And, uh, They’re, they’re, they, they see where their friends, they see where the interest is, they see where people are hiring, uh, and they’re, again, at the same time, you have people coming in the program that might be a little bit older, twenties, thirties, forties, and they’re probably engaged in marketing in some way, or maybe directly involved in sales.
[00:24:53] And courses like this can add a lot of value to them. Right. Immediately, as you mentioned immediately.
[00:24:57] Chris Corcoran: Yeah. What’s, uh, the most rewarding piece of teaching sales?
[00:25:03] Mark Johnston: Ooh,
[00:25:05] Greg Marshall: that’s
[00:25:05] Mark Johnston: good. That’s a great question, Greg. I knew that was coming. Alright, so it’s
[00:25:10] Greg Marshall: really easy for me because, and it’s been all these years, um, the students wanna be in there and they get it and they see the value of it.
[00:25:21] And I don’t have to sell ’em on sales. So all of a sudden I’m sitting there or standing there with a group of people who are just so turned on to the possibilities of what this knowledge base and skillset is gonna give them that they can use through their whole career. And, and I have to tell you, that has always excited me the most about teaching these courses.
[00:25:45] Uh, you know, we’re both marketing guys, right? So we’re not knocking marketing here. Don’t anybody take it like that. I love marketing. But, um, the, the problem is in many ways that marketing has evolved or devolved to something that is, uh, much more impersonal than it ever was before. Mm-hmm. Because the technology allows for very much impersonal kinds of contact.
[00:26:07] Okay, fine. Check that off. The difference in that and the sales track is that it’s actually gone the other direction now because B2B sales, which is what we’re really talking about here. Mm-hmm. You know, I was in the retail business, but then B2B sales was where I, I worked as a sales manager and all that as a, as a space for somebody to work in.
[00:26:26] Is to me more exciting now than it was before because you’re, you’re dealing with a value proposition that I, as the sales person have to be able to convey to the customer. The customer usually has a variety of people that she or here working with to get to. Yes. Mm-hmm. And so I have to be very wily about how do I get that person to see the value proposition.
[00:26:51] We weren’t talking about sales that way 20 years ago. To me now that’s a big turn on. I see. Very
[00:26:57] Mark Johnston: strategic.
[00:26:57] Chris Corcoran: Okay. Okay. And what about you? Well,
[00:27:00] Mark Johnston: probably the, the biggest reward comes when, you know, you see students broaden their skillset mm-hmm, in the course. Like, students will come into the course, and again, they’re there because they wanna be, uh, they see the value of the course, but people come in with a certain skillset.
[00:27:15] Maybe it’s their, they’re great at relationships or they’re great at analytical skills. So finance majors come in and they. But, um, over the, over the course, they’re able to broaden that skillset to be much more encompassing of what a sales career really is. It’s not just focused on your analytical skills or your communication skills.
[00:27:34] Mm-hmm. It’s being able to actually add value for the customer. And, uh, when I see students able to kind of look at sales strategically and incorporate everything that we’re trying to give them in the experience of the course and, and benefit from, when I see that happen, it’s, it’s
[00:27:53] Chris Corcoran: quite rewarding. Do you, uh, keep up with any of your alums?
[00:27:59] Former students.
[00:28:00] Mark Johnston: We, we have a very strong alumni
[00:28:03] Chris Corcoran: group here. Yeah. Well, but you personally, like, did you Yes. Did you go and see students five years, 10 years? Yeah. 15 years out and kind of excelling within the profession. I’m sure that’s, uh, really fulfilling.
[00:28:14] Mark Johnston: Oh, it’s unbelievable.
[00:28:16] Greg Marshall: And then they do come back here.
[00:28:17] We’re pretty tight-knit group here, and the students do show up at different places and they’ve always got a positive story and they’ll always talk about certain courses and, uh, One of the courses is the sales related courses. And I, you
[00:28:32] Mark Johnston: know, it is interesting. It is interesting to watch the career arc.
[00:28:35] Mm-hmm. And when they come back after five years, 10 years, whatever, and for them to sit and reflect, I. On what, what that two years or whatever it was here, if they were undergrad plus crummer four or five years, what did that mean to them? Because often when you’re going through it mm-hmm. You can’t see Right?
[00:28:54] You can’t really see the value of it, even if you’re in your thirties or forties. But after there’s a period of time and you can see your career arc, um, it’s, it’s, it’s great to hear their stories. Talk about how that experience changed them and, and reflecting back on the change it made in their career.
[00:29:11] Oftentimes in their personal life.
[00:29:13] Chris Corcoran: Yeah, for sure. What would you say to a student, whether it be undergrad or master’s, who is considering taking a class in sales? Go for it.
[00:29:25] Mark Johnston: Uh, go on. I would say, well, you know, the, the, the challenge here is, um, You know, doing, you know, it’s like, do what brings you joy? If you’re gonna spend a lot of your adult life working, do a career that, that you enjoy doing.
[00:29:41] Right. ’cause you’re gonna spend a lot of time doing it. Right. Uh, and that requires some thought beyond just taking, looking at sales, but looking at what you really want to do in life. Mm-hmm. But for those people that have given it serious thought and, and thought that this is an area they might, might want to explore the, the value add today of getting in a sales program.
[00:30:01] And, uh, getting those experiences and learning how to improve your professional selling skills can really gr give you a great leverage and a leg up as you begin your career, as you continue your career later on. Right.
[00:30:15] Greg Marshall: One of the things that’s fascinated me for years is the fact that people are always doing studies of effective leaders.
[00:30:22] Sure. And so they’re always looking for the, you know, the holy grail. Right. What is it that we can find and dissect that would give us an indication that person X, Y, or Z. It’s likely to quote, make it to the C-suite or to become successful in their own enterprise or whatever. And the, the only piece that comes up consistently over all those studies is effective interpersonal communications.
[00:30:49] Being able to state your point, create the value proposition, speak to people in a way that helps them understand what’s in it for them. That is the essence of leadership. And so, you know, academics like to categorize things. So you’ve got sales over here and you’ve got management leadership here, and you’ve got marketing here and all of that.
[00:31:08] Forget that because the skillset that these sales courses teach, that is the one that is most associated consistently with somebody who makes up to the top. Mm-hmm. And if whether that top is you being successful as an individual in your own enterprise, or whether you’re in the C-suite of a Fortune 500, Every study I’ve ever seen indicates that that skillset that we would call sales mm-hmm.
[00:31:35] Accounts for the most variance in likelihood of someone being successful in those
[00:31:39] Mark Johnston: roles.
[00:31:40] Chris Corcoran: Right. So, uh, shifting gears quickly, what are you most excited about over the next couple of days? Oh, Well, we’ve
[00:31:49] Mark Johnston: got some really great sessions coming up and, uh, I, you know, we’re, we’re focusing a lot on, uh, technology Yep.
[00:31:57] In, in, in these sessions, in, in the, over the next couple days. But I’m looking forward to these sessions on ai, on chat, GPT on how, you know, what’s the impact of that, because quite honestly, Some of these things aren’t just happening in real time and we don’t know what the impact is, but we’re having no discussion.
[00:32:15] Those discussions, and, and the reality is that’s really one of the great advantages and benefits of this experience, the Sales Educator Academy, ’cause it’s really the only place mm-hmm. Where educators can come together in the area of sales and talk about some of these topics. That, you know, we’re facing and, and, uh, have a good
[00:32:34] Chris Corcoran: discussion around it.
[00:32:35] Compare notes with, with your colleagues. Exactly. Yeah. It’s great. What about you? It’s
[00:32:39] Mark Johnston: hard to
[00:32:40] Greg Marshall: argue with that. Yeah. You know, it’s great to see all the folks that come in, but the real magic happens during the sessions. Mm-hmm. And you end up really understanding, again, why we’re all so committed to this field.
[00:32:52] Uh, it, it magic happens at Sales Educators Academy and then people go out, go back to their home institutions mm-hmm. And start putting into practice some of the things that they’ve gained from it. Then guess what? Months later, years later, people still come up to both of us. Mm-hmm. And they’ll say, yeah, back in 2011 or whatever.
[00:33:11] Mm-hmm. We did this and that was great. And I think there’s nothing else like Sales Educators Academy Right. In our field, there’s plenty of conferences in sales. Sure. But they’re, they’re all focused more on the research side. Mm-hmm. This is the one where, We talk about how to make it happen in the classroom.
[00:33:28] That’s great.
[00:33:28] Chris Corcoran: That’s great. Well, I appreciate you guys hosting the, the conference and I appreciate you Sure. Giving us, giving some time to the listeners on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, a lot of fun. Thank you, care. Thank you. You too. Thanks.