Tech Sales is for Hustlers Podcast

Campus Series: Richard Tate – Overcoming The Fear of Rejection

Guest-At-A-Glance

Name: Richard Tate

What he does: Richard is a director at the Center for Professional Sales at James Madison University. He is also a Marketing Department faculty member in the college of business.

Company/Institution: James Madison University

Noteworthy: In 2017, Richard received the Dr. Otto C. Brenner Memorial Award as the most outstanding undergraduate professor.

Where to find Richard: LinkedIn.

Key Insights

⚡ We must wake up with a purpose. Waking up with a purpose is much more fruitful than drifting without it, claims Richard. According to him, purpose defines success, and that’s one of the reasons why it is an important topic in his classes. Just as companies need to find a purpose for their products or services, so individuals should find it for what they learn or do.

⚡Salespeople-to-be must overcome the fear of rejection. “You probably shouldn’t consider a career in sales if you cannot take rejection,” says Richard. Rejection is a common issue in the sales business, but this is something that students can practice and can become better at. Students and future salespeople shouldn’t see rejection as a problem but rather as part of the day-to-day operations and a learning experience. It can be an excellent opportunity to move on and close future sales much faster.

⚡Progression and success don’t happen overnight. “If you see something on Amazon, Jeff Bezos will get it to you by the end of the day. So, we expect all these things to happen really quickly, but I don’t think career progression and development can happen at that same pace that Jeff Bezos can deliver your product to you.” According to Richard, most seniors end up disappointed when they cannot find a job after college. He always tells his students: “It is going to take you a year at least, before you’re going to be successful at sales, and maybe it’s 18 months, who knows.”

Episode Highlights

Richard Tate – From a Pilot to a World-Class Salesperson and Teacher

Richard Tate is an all-rounder. His rich career encompasses his work in the Navy, Boeing, and James Madison University. What connects all these positions? -Sales. “People ask, ‘How’d you get in sales?’ Why does Boeing just hire some psychology major from UVA that spent 20 years flying airplanes? And I’ll tell you this because I was a subject matter expert in what I had done for the Navy. […] So, Boeing hired me in sales and marketing because of the relationships that I developed.”

 

Waking Up with a Purpose is a Key to Success

“I think if you wake up each day with a purpose that you’re going to do better than folks that wake up just drifting and without purpose” is something Richard thinks is crucial both in life and career. And what is his purpose? “I started looking at JMU, and my purpose now is to help my students transition from college seniors to careers that they can thrive in. And I feel a lot of purpose in that. I had at least three significant different purposes in my life, but my success has always fallen back on having that purpose.”

 

What Comes After College: Expectations vs. Reality?

“They [young students] have some idea of what they want to do and how they want to do it. And then they get out there, and it’s a little more difficult or challenging than they expect. And sales is particularly one of those careers where success doesn’t occur overnight because you have to build that network.” Richard claims that success in the sales field requires acquiring some skills, including communication with individuals. “I tell my students, it’s going to take you a year at least, right before you’re going to be successful at sales, and maybe it’s 18 months.” Students tend to have great expectations, but the reality is a bit different.

 

Overcoming the Fear of Rejection Defines a Salesperson

According to Richard, people who are not ready to take rejection may not consider sales. However, rejection is just a part of the business. “It is not a bad thing. It can be a learning experience. It can be an opportunity to move on to the next thing quicker. It’s something you practice, and it’s something you get better at. And you realize in a sales role that it’s just part of the day-to-day operations. People are going to say no, and maybe I can overcome an objection. Maybe I can swing the conversation back in my direction. Sometimes you can’t. Sometimes you just got to say, okay, and move on. So, you got to have that attitude.”

 

Future Salespeople Should Know What Companies Can Offer Them

“My biggest variation when I talk to students what they ought to be thinking about is an investment process. You’re accepting a position with a company. You’re investing your future with that company. I always ask my students, what is that company investing in you? What’s the training program? What are they going to do to help you be successful? Because we already talk about it – sales is difficult. It’s something you’re going to have to do, maybe for a year or longer, before you’re successful. Are you going to be struggling that year on your own? Or what’s that program that the company has that’s going to help you through that first year? Students and future salespeople should be looking for companies willing to invest in them instead of throwing them in the market and saying, ‘Go, do it.’

 

Did the Pandemic Affect the Way of Teaching, Studying, and Recruiting?

The pandemic has introduced us to new ways of communication. Studying, teaching, and recruiting have become virtual, but, according to Richard, such an environment has some significant benefits. “From a video perspective, all our students are becoming much better. It’s Zoom and the other tools that are out there for my sales call role-plays. All my students have to share their screen and do a presentation. I think that’s an important skill to have. But I think from a recruiting perspective and a student perspective, it’s just the way things are taking place now. And we’re all getting better at it and becoming more efficient.”

 

Love to Win or Hate to Lose: Which One Has More Impact?

Some consider sales as the game where you either win or lose. But what does Richard think about it? “They both [win and loss] are a reflection of how well you prepared and how well you perform. But, there’s just more impact for me to lose. And if I do fail or lose at something, it’s because maybe I wasn’t prepared enough. Or maybe I didn’t put the time in it that is required. Cause frankly, losing hits you directly, whereas sometimes you win, and you don’t even expect it. For me, losing would be my choice out of those two because that reflects on me and my preparation, whereas winning might reflect on something else.“

Transcript:

Kristen Wisdorf: [00:00:00] All right. Welcome back Hustlers to another episode of our Campus mini Series. Today, we have Richard Tate, who is the director for the Center of Professional Sales at JMU. I am Kristen Wisdorf.

[00:00:15] Libby Galatis: [00:00:15] And I’m Libby Galatis. Richard, we’re so excited to be catching up with you today.

[00:00:22] Richard Tate: [00:00:22] Sounds like fun. I’m looking forward to having a sales conversation with the two of you.

[00:00:26] Libby Galatis: [00:00:26] Oh, yeah. So, in the last few episodes we’ve been picking the brains of sales leaders at a variety of different universities across the country. So many new programs are coming up. And you know, it’s just kind of a movement. Professional sales is now becoming a more legitimate career path for students to consider.

[00:00:44] So we’ll definitely talk more about that a little bit later to start things off, though, we were hoping to get to know you a bit and, um, share with the listeners a bit about your background. So I’m going to start off by asking you what we typically ask the students and the candidates that we interview, which is, uh, give us a sticky sixty seconds snapshot about yourself, your own personal highlight reel.

[00:01:04] Who is Richard Tate and how did you become, you know, in the seat that you’re in today?

[00:01:08] Richard Tate: [00:01:08] Okay, fantastic Libby, thanks. So my name is Richard Tate. I started out at University of Virginia many years ago, and I tell you all that because I played football there. And the first year I was there, James Madison beat us. So now I, now I teach at James Madison. I think JMU has only played UVA once and JMU won.

[00:01:28] So that that’s a little fun fact. I graduated, I joined the Navy. I was a pilot in the Navy for 20 years. So sales came late in my career. Uh, but after I retired from the Navy, I was very interested in aviation. Most of my friends were becoming airline pilots, it just wasn’t what I wanted to do. So I need, I, I initially got hired by Boeing to work on airplane programs, all B2G, business to government.

[00:01:53] Working on a replacement airplane programs for some of the equipment that I had flown while I was in the Navy. So people ask, you know, well, how’d you get in sales, how does, why does Boeing, why does Boeing just hire some Psychology Major from UVA that spent 20 years flying airplanes? And I’ll tell you this, because I was a subject matter expert in what I had done for the Navy.

[00:02:14] So Boeing hired me in sales and marketing because of the relationships that I developed with senior military leaders and the expertise that I had, uh, operating the equipment that the Navy was operating. So Boeing saw some value in that, in me, to bring me onto the sales staff so I could continue to have the conversations with my Navy friends.

[00:02:35] And work, uh, work from a sales and marketing perspective on the Boeing side. I did that for five years, we were successful. Um, the Navy purchased a 737 aircraft from Boeing to replace a plane that was getting old and the inventory. And after that program was over, um, I went down to Lockheed Martin in Sales and Marketing to sell systems that Lockheed Martin developed and built that would go on that airplane that the Boeing company had just sold the Navy. 

[00:03:02] So Lockheed saw value in me by being on the team that it sold the aircraft to LOC or the Boeing aircraft to the government uh, to now work on the side of filling that plane with systems sensors and weapons systems.

[00:03:17] So I did that for about five years and then struck out with a couple of friends of mine on an entrepreneurial pursuit, um, working government programs. All my professional sales was for the most part B to B2G, when we went the entrepreneurial route, we were working with some, some, uh, commercial, um, companies.

[00:03:37] I was still writing proposals. I have a small place in Virginia. I used to always sit on the front porch because it’s quiet and I would write my proposals and look out over a beautiful view. And I was sitting there one day thinking, man, I’ve been doing these proposals for so long. I picked up the newspaper and JMU had an advertisement and in, in an actual physical newspaper where they were looking for a new director of a Center for Professional Sales.

[00:04:02] So I was looking at a newspaper. I was like, I wonder what the heck that’s all about. And Dr. Andy Wood, uh, was the point of contact. So I, I think that day I knew nothing about the program. I just picked up the phone, I called Andy Wood and I said “Hey, this is who I am, this is what I’ve done. I don’t want to waste a lot of time applying to the job you think you’d be interested”.

[00:04:21] Uh, and he responded “Yes, apply and let’s see where it goes”. So I applied and, uh, just a couple months later took the position, um, as the Director of Center for Professional Sales at JMU. That’s probably longer than 60 seconds, but that’s my sales pitch.

[00:04:37] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:04:37] Wow. I love that you, you sold yourself into the role.

[00:04:43] Richard Tate: [00:04:43] Right. You have to do that, right. And I talk about value each time, right. So, um, you know, I’ll tell you that when I retired from the Navy as a Navy pilot, my ego was huge, right. Uh, it’s taken some wile to bring that down a little bit, but when I retired, I thought that hey, all I got to do is knock on the door of the Boeings and the Lockheed Martins of the world, and they’re going to open it for me.

[00:05:05] And I quickly learned that didn’t happen, right. Um, I knocked on the door and nobody answered. And I went through a whole cycle of, of crafting resumes. Dozens maybe, maybe a hundred. I went through interviews, my first interview I’m like, this is exactly what I want, this is, you know, this is, I’m going to get it.

[00:05:24] And I thought I did a great job, but you know, they obviously thought I didn’t. And it took a while. I mean, it takes a while for, so for all those students I think they’re going to walk right into exactly what they want, you know, as a 44 year old, uh, military officer, I thought that, you know, that it was going to be easy and it wasn’t, right, it was a challenge. 

[00:05:41] And it took a few months, a lot of interviews, um, a lot of resume, uh, different renditions of resumes. And it took a lot to get that first job that I really wanted. But then once I was in, it was obviously a lot easier.

[00:05:58] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:05:58] So that’s very interesting. I mean, you had mentioned, so your first job was at Boeing and you were the subject matter expert, right? You were in the Navy, you understood what the area that you were playing in. It’s it’s often very different for students, right? They, especially if they take sales classes, they may be understand like baseline sales theory, ideas, techniques, but they might not especially getting into Tech Sales, know anything about the technology.

[00:06:26] So, uh, in a way, like you knew a lot of information, how did you learn the sales part of that job when you knew everything about the aircraft?

[00:06:37] Richard Tate: [00:06:37] Right. See, that’s the interesting thing. Um, I knew the technology well, I had no idea about sales and marketing, right? Um, so they hired me because I had the relationships. I had the expertise, they had the established network, established relationships, and that’s what companies saw value in. And that’s what Boeing and Lockheed both saw value in.

[00:06:57] So I talked to my students a lot about um, no, I had a list of features, right? Pilot, Navy, you know, I, I talk a lot to my students about features, but Boeing was not going to hire me for any of the features on my feature list, my personal feature list. I had to identify what my value was to them and be able to speak in terms of my value.

[00:07:19] From that expertise, right. And from my network that I could bring to the company, that was my real value to them. And so I had to be able to speak in terms of value, not just, you know, I got 4,000 flight hours, you know, I did all these things, I mean those are features. They have no value to someone like, oh I and students, we always talk about, um, you know, well, I’m the president of the fraternity, or I have a 3.5 GPA and that those are all features and they want to talk to features.

[00:07:47] They want to tell me all their features, but I tell them those don’t mean anything to me. I mean, what is the value? I mean, the fact that you tell me you had a 3.5 or 3.8 GPA, means nothing to me. But when you tell me you stayed up at night, you worked hard, you overcame some hurdles, you had to do some team effort, you know, work as a team to create, to complete assignments.

[00:08:08] Now, those kinds of statements are expressing your value. Um, but 3.5, 3.8, 4.0 means nothing to me. You had to do something to be able to do that. So I really try and stress um, the importance of being able to explain your value, uh, to a prospective employer or recruiter. Um, and, and, you know, many students, particularly with the pandemic are saying, well, well, I, you know, I have seniors now that didn’t have an opportunity last summer for an internship, right. 

[00:08:39] Um, but many of them had been servers, right. In, in service industries. I mean, they say that doesn’t mean anything, those are customer relations, experiences, right. Um, in, in those roles you are solving problems and you’re the direct, um, face for your restaurant to a customer. Uh they’re the customers are going to come back to that restaurant based on the experience they have with you as a server.

[00:09:06] And, and, you know, I just, I, I use The Challenger Sale a lot in my classes. Um, and that’s a book that talks about the number one reason for repeat business is the sales experience. Customers come back to someone to accompany, not because of the product, not because of the 4 Ps, not because of the promotion, the price, the placement, all that, all that great stuff we learn about as marketers, people come back to companies because of the experience they have working with them and that sales experience. 

[00:09:36] And so, you know, that’s the direct role of a salesperson today is to create that experience that gets people coming back.

[00:09:44] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:09:44] Yeah, that’s so interesting. You talked a little bit about, um, it’s not necessarily about the features, it’s about the value and the way you portray that value is by telling those stories and walking, perhaps a hiring manager through real life examples, and you have such an interesting story. You went to UVA and then went into the Navy.

[00:10:05] Did you know, you always wanted to go into the military? Tell us a little bit about that part of your life and how that happened.

[00:10:12] Richard Tate: [00:10:12] No, that’s a really long story. I don’t think we have time today, but no, I had given it some thought early in my, um, early in my college, uh, time at UVA. Uh, but it really, um, I graduated and I wasn’t ready for the workforce. Um, I really wasn’t. Um, so my story is pretty unique. I went to, um, I did an exchange program that the University had with the University of Auckland, and I went to New Zealand on a work, a work exchange program, uh, after I graduated.

[00:10:45] And I went down there and I really, I really didn’t work that much just enough to get by and backpack around the company. But where it took me was a bar in Christchurch, New Zealand, where I ran into US Navy crew. And at the time the US Navy had a base in Christchurch New Zealand, which is on the South Island to do all the support flights out to Antarctica.

[00:11:08] And so I ran into a group of guys that were only a year or so older than me. I was just drifting around the South Island of New Zealand, working a little bit skiing and backpacking. And I ran into these guys who were just a couple years older than me and became friends with them. And one night we were sitting in the pub and you know, this was before cell phones and the individual’s beeper went off, the guy who was just a couple of years older than me, his beeper went off and said, I got to go.

[00:11:34] And, um, I said Okay, I’ll stay in, hold the place down, have fun while you guys are gone. And, and they left and came back about two days later. And what had happened was, uh, there was an emergency on, in Antarctica at McMurdo Station and they had gotten the call. There was a cardiac event and they had got the call to do a rescue flight from Christchurch, New Zealand to McMurdo Sound or McMurdo Station.

[00:12:00] And when the guys got back, I mean, these, these guys were only a couple of years older than me and they had just flown, um, a significant distance through bad weather to go pick somebody up on the ice and bring them back. And I’m thinking, and when they walked back in, it was just like no big deal. And I saw so much purpose, right.

[00:12:19] What I saw was a lot of purpose. And that’s why I talk about purpose in my class. I saw a couple guys, actually five, that were like two years older than me that had just flown from Christchurch to Antarctica, to rescue somebody, save their life and bring them back. And I saw a lot of purpose in their, in their mannerism and in my, my, I was like, I want to be like that. I want to find that purpose, right. 

[00:12:44] So I wrapped up my time in New Zealand, came back, um, to Virginia. Actually, uh, was walking down the street in Richmond and ran to a Navy recruiter. And we started a conversation and I was in the Navy about a month and a half later.

[00:12:57] Libby Galatis: [00:12:57] Wow. You’ve already said this a few times at this point, your background is just so interesting and it all kind of builds off of each other, eventually landing you in sales, which is just crazy. Um, so you talked about purpose a little bit, and I think that’s really interesting because most students that I speak with, they put themselves under a lot of pressure when they’re deciding their first job after graduating. What is my purpose? What product am I going to sell? What industry am I interested in working in? 

[00:13:25] And I think a lot of that stuff, especially in your first role might not be as important. Do you think that students graduating have to know what their purpose is or is that something that you kind of navigate through life experience?

[00:13:36] Richard Tate: [00:13:36] I think if you wake up each day with purpose, um, that you’re going to do better than folks that wake up just drifting and without purpose. Uh, there are a number of great books out there. Uh, the author McLeod wrote “Selling with Noble Purpose”. Uh, we’re noble in that term is always in the service of others.

[00:13:54] Um, Lisa McLeod is the author’s name. Uh, she also, she wrote that book first, I use it in my class. And she also wrote another book “Leading with Noble Purpose”, and I use that in my leadership class. So in the both of those books, they’ve done research where companies and like Patagonia is one of them, right, that develops products that they don’t want to end up in the ocean after one use, right. 

[00:14:16] They want them to be, a last  a long time and repurpose and those sorts of things. Um, and, and that’s their purpose. And, and Lisa in her books will tell you that companies, uh, that have a purpose in their products and services do better than companies that don’t clearly articulate what the purpose of their products and services are, or their company.

[00:14:39] And she’ll also tell you that individuals that wake up each morning, feeling purpose, um, will do better getting through the day, but do you have to know that purpose? No, I, you know, I saw, I had an example, right. I saw a real-world example and I just, I said, I want that, right. And I went and got it. Um, and then for 20 years, as a pilot in  Navy, I felt a lot of purpose, right.

[00:15:02] Flying an airplane around with the American flag on the tail, I felt a lot of purpose in that. Um, and then what happens in that community is physiology takes over and the eyesight and the hearing and, and things. So that even like 44, I was too old to do what I’ve been doing for the last 20 years. If you can, you know, it’s kind of a shot, but, but you have to come to those terms.

[00:15:21] And then I felt a lot of purpose because what had happened while I was in the Navy is we never had everything we needed to do the job we needed to do. So when I retired from the Navy and got hired by Boeing, my purpose shifted from showing the flag around the world to now helping develop and produce products that our military members needed.

[00:15:42] Um, and I felt a lot of purpose in that, because if you all, I mean you all aren’t nearly as old as me, but I mean, the country has been in conflict for probably your entire lives. I know Libby, certainly hers, right. Um, and Krista, I don’t know anything about you, I’m not making any assumptions, right. Um, but you know, I felt a strong sense of purpose to put the things, the tools, in the hands of the folks who were still out there in harm’s way.

[00:16:06] And that’s what I did at Boeing and Lockheed Martin. And then what happened to me, is it just drag on and on and on and on and on, um, the conflicts in the Middle East. And I just kind of grew weary and I got tired of it, right, I got tired of it. Hey, yeah I’m building some great products and services with the two largest defense companies in the world, but I’m not really sure it’s really making a difference.

[00:16:31] And so at that point, I got the JMU. I started looking at JMU and my purpose now is to help my students’ transition from college seniors, to careers that they can thrive in and I feel a lot of purpose in that, that now. So I just told you it was, I had at least three significant different purposes in my life, but my success has always kind of fallen back on having that purpose.

[00:16:57] And even though it’s changed over time.

[00:17:00] Libby Galatis: [00:17:00] That’s amazing. So taking a step back,  you transitioned from the Navy into sales, like you said, a little bit later in your career. Um, what do you think you learned in the Navy that applied to the sales role outside of just product knowledge? Is there anything that kind of transferred from those two very different sides of the coin?

[00:17:20] Richard Tate: [00:17:20] Uh, don’t give up. It’s like the number one thing, because I know you all see it, you know, you recruit and hire college seniors, and I think many college students think they’re going to do well in sales and all salespeople experience adversity. When they start, they don’t have the network, they don’t have the product knowledge, um, they’re not seen as, as, as perhaps, uh, experts in the, in the industry and that all takes time. 

[00:17:44] And I think what happens to many young sales professionals is they give up before they develop the skills they really need to be successful. You know,  it’s not going to happen in a couple months. You know, I, I think, you know, in a lot of ways, um, we become sort of an instant gratification society, right?

[00:18:01] If you see something on Amazon you want, you know, Jeff Bezos will get it to you by the end of the day, right? So we expect all these things to happen really quickly, but I don’t think career progression and development can happen at that same pace that Jeff pays us can deliver your product to you, right.

[00:18:18] So, so I think what happens with, with young students is they have, they have some, some idea of what they want to do and how they want to do it. And then they give out there and it’s a little more difficult or challenging than they expect. And sales is particularly one of those careers where it just doesn’t, success just doesn’t occur overnight because you have to build that network.

[00:18:38] You have to build the skills, you have to learn how to communicate with individuals, and you just, that just didn’t happen overnight. Uh, and I, I tell my students it’s going to take you a year at least right, before you’re going to be successful at sales and I, and maybe it’s 18 months. I mean, I don’t know.

[00:18:54] And I know memoryBlue has a model, right to, to get folks successful, get them recognized and get them transitioned in a timeline, but I’m sure you all don’t see overnight success in your new hires in the first month. And those individuals by month 12 or 15 or 18 you know, are very effective. So I’d like to hear about what you all see and is this true or not?

[00:19:16] I mean, that’s my personal.

[00:19:18] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:19:18] Yeah, Richard, absolutely. I think, you know, especially people who get into sales, um, we hire all personalities and backgrounds and experiences, but generally we hire, you know, competitive people, people who are you still winning at the things that they’re doing whether it’s school or sports, things like that.

[00:19:35] And I think the biggest surprise as they get into sales and they start losing, they start failing and maybe not winning all the time. And it’s, um, it’s a surprise to them and it’s, it’s challenging and it takes some time to get used to it and use those failures as motivators. Um Richard, what other misconceptions do you think, um, either you had back when you were getting into sales or that you’re seeing some of your students have now about sales, um, before they actually jump into that, that first job out of college.

[00:20:08] Richard Tate: [00:20:08] Well, you know, I teach in a Marketing Department and in my course is required, right? My professional selling course is required. So, you know, the classroom I’ll walk into at the beginning of the semester is 90% marketing students that want marketing jobs and 10% sales students that they’re actively thinking about sales.

[00:20:27] And when you look at national statistics, 85% of all marketing majors start out in sales. Right? So I walk into a class where 85% of my class thinks they’re going to be marketers and 15% is going to be sales. But the national average is 85% are going to be in sales and only 15% are going to get those digital marketing jobs are looking for.

[00:20:45] So we talk about that a lot. There’s, there’s a big mismatch between expectations your senior year as a marketing major, right. I know you all hire many different majors. I’m just sharing my experience, uh, as a professor in a Marketing Department and what the real opportunities are. So that’s the first step, a mismatch and a perspective, right, and opportunity. 

[00:21:08] So that that’s the first hurdle you have to overcome. And then a lot of people have a misconception about sales. I mean, we have, uh, you know, I, I use, um, I use SPIN selling, it’s getting a bit dated, but I use that specifically because, because Boeing used it. And when I was in Boeing’s Government Operations Office in Washington, D.C. we shut the whole office down and went through SPIN selling, right. 

[00:21:31] And so when I got hired by JME, I’m like “Well, that’s a good start because if it’s good enough for Boeing, it’s good enough for me in my class”. So we started, we started with that. Um, but that, that tells you how to ask the right kind of questions, right. Um, in, in questions, in a sales role, uh, are very important and students don’t realize that that, you know, solution selling is getting a little bit maybe dated now.

[00:21:55] I mean, we’ve heard a lot of solutions selling, that’s what SPIN’s all about. That’s why I like Challenger Sales, I mean students don’t realize that to be effective in sales, you have to have the communication skills, the investigative skills, and then you’d be needed to be able to be an expert in whatever it is you’re selling, so you can actually teach somebody something about it. 

[00:22:17] And that’s where the whole Challenger Sale perspective comes in. Being able to teach, right? So to me right now selling in a very advanced technology world, um, is the ability to teach somebody something that they don’t know. Whether whether it’s something technology-based about your product or service, or maybe about the market, or maybe about the competition, you know?

[00:22:39] Um, but, but sales roles now are, are, and that’s what the Challenger Sale is telling us. And I saw that my entire time you have the value you bring in any conversation is when you bring new information, right. So you have to be able to bring that new information into a sales conversation, uh, to create value for yourself and your product.

[00:23:00] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:23:00] Yeah, that’s such a good point. Even going back to your comment about expectations, right. I was exactly that person. I was the marketing major who knew I was probably going to have to go into sales. So I took, I took my sales classes at my college, so I’d be prepared for it. Um, but aside from expectations and just talking about what the students are most likely going to experience in their first job, what else is the center do and you doing to prepare students? 

[00:23:31] I mean, you’ve been at JMU going on five years now. Um, how else are you preparing students to get ready for that job? Whether they’re fully in the sales program and, you know, doing sales competitions, or maybe it’s just their first required class with you.

[00:23:47] Richard Tate: [00:23:47] Well, I think, you know, before I came to JMU, we had very limited corporate partner interaction and engagement, right. So the, you know, the value that Libby brings to my program, right, so you think she’s just recruiting for you all. But, you know she’s doing a great job on that, but what she’s really doing is showing my students, right,

[00:24:05] what the industry is like, what a company is like, what a person looks like that’s successful in the company. So, you know a walking, talking example of success, recent, relatively recent graduate, right. Um, and, and out there doing it, right. So she’s, she’s, she’s showing people, she’s showing my students, right.

[00:24:26] Just in her presence and now it’s online and, and frankly, that’s been a little more difficult because you know, voice comes through, image comes through, but personality doesn’t really come through that well. And we’re looking at each pulling two and three inch squares, right. And it just doesn’t work that well.

[00:24:42] Um, but what I’ve done and what many universities do, they bring folks like you all on campus to have those direct engagements with our students. Not me answering the questions. I tell my students, you know, I’m going to bring Libby on campus, ask her the hard questions, right? Ask her anything you want to, I mean it’s not coming for me because I’m an academic and yeah, I got an interesting background and you know, but that doesn’t, you know, what really does it today is bring those young professionals on campus, that have been successful, um, to show them what it looks like. 

[00:25:14] Best example, best example of someone who’s been there and done that, right?

[00:25:20] Libby Galatis: [00:25:20] Definitely. So how large is the JMU sales program now? How big are you guys?

[00:25:27] Richard Tate: [00:25:27] Well, we teach four classes as part of our sales program. We have a sales concentration, students can get a concentration by taking any three of those four classes. Um, all students have to take the advanced or the Professional Selling Course. Then we have an Advanced Professional Selling Course. We have a CRM Course, and then we have a Sales Leadership Course.

[00:25:46] So we have those four courses. You can get a concentration at any given semester within those four courses, we have about 170 students enroll, um, in the, in the basic sales class that all our marketing majors has have to take. I mean, that’s certainly our largest class, um typically running four or five sections with 120 marketing majors, right.

[00:26:10] Um, that aren’t, that may or may not be interested in sales. And then the other three classes typically have a course, uh, loading of about 20 to 25 students each semester.

[00:26:21] Libby Galatis: [00:26:21] That’s it. I mean, it’s just incredible how much you guys have grown, even in just the last three or four years. Um, I guess, you know, there are a lot of universities out there that don’t have sales concentrations, they don’t offer sales courses. What do you think is a valuable takeaway that students can get out of a sales class that they might not be able to get from other courses that they’re taking?

[00:26:42] Richard Tate: [00:26:42] I think it’s just an awareness of what sales is. You know, we still have this, this stigma attached to sales and, you know, hats off to folks, you know, um, they’re part of the University Sales Center Alliance. That’s a national organization that has tried to uh, to, to recognize sales programs that are excelling to create some levels of standards throughout all scales programs in the US um, you know, there’s still a stigma attached and we always use the used car salesman right, to sales, but that’s not really what sales is about at all today, right. 

[00:27:14] Um, I mean, sales is, is, is for the most part is a very technology based field. I mean, I, it doesn’t matter what it is. I tell my students, you know, even if, even that simple, you know double-walled drinking cup that you might have on your desk.

[00:27:30] I mean, do you know how it really works, right? If someone says, well, how does that really work? You got to be able to talk about vacuums and you’ve gotta be able to talk about thermal transfer and the last bill in the lack of, you know,  atoms in between those two layers so thermal transfer can occur. I mean, even something as simple as these double-walled drinking cups if you really want to be a good salesperson, you better know how it works. 

[00:27:50] And you’re getting into vacuums and thermal transfer conversations, if you know, if, if you’re really going to be good at.

[00:27:57] Libby Galatis: [00:27:57] I think that that’s a really great point. There’s a lot of positives and negatives, a lot of misconceptions that are rolling around that you just have to counteract. And the only way we can do that is by educating, by spreading the word about the value in this, this foundation. Um, but we can talk about the realities of it I mean is extremely challenging. 

[00:28:13] Um, could you finish this sentence for us because we have been talking a bit about what it takes to be successful in sales, what type of person that we typically hire. Um, you know, if you have somebody that’s considering sales, maybe they shouldn’t consider sales if blank, you know, what type of person or what do you think um, what, when somebody considering sales, if it’s not a good fit for them, what, um, I’m going to pause one to rephrase that question because they totally jumbled over. 

[00:28:39] I’m going to ask you to finish the sentence. You probably shouldn’t career consider a career in sales, if blank.

[00:28:45] Richard Tate: [00:28:45] If you can’t take rejection, right? If you can’t take rejection, you know, my heart, my heart answer would be if you’re a quitter, but that’s not a very good answer, right. So you can edit that out. But if you can’t take rejection, um, is probably. And people, you know, a lot of people can, but that, that’s not, that’s a learned trait, I think, in our society today.

[00:29:08] I mean, you learn, you know, I think students, most students, you know, one of the biggest things I struggle with in my sales role plays is to get a student to actually close a sale and ask for the ask for the business, right. Um, you know, I’ve, I’ve I hear statements all the time like “So, you said you liked what I had to show you today.

[00:29:28] So if perhaps I had a contract with me, if, if by chance I had a contract with me, would you maybe be willing to sign it if I had that contract with me, right”. Because I mean, that’s, I haven’t, I’m maybe I maybe, you know dramatizing a little bit, but I’ve had examples, right, similar to that. And, um, so said that rejection, you know, but but, it’s something you practice and it’s something you get better at. 

[00:29:53] And you realize in a sales role that it’s just part of the part of the day -to- day operations, right? People are gonna say no. Um, and maybe, you know, maybe I can overcome an objection, perhaps. Maybe I can swing the conversation back in my direction.

[00:30:07] Sometimes you can’t. Sometimes you just got to say, okay, and move on, right. So you gotta have that attitude that, um, number one, rejection’s not a bad thing, it can be a learning experience, right. It can be an opportunity to move on to the next thing quicker, right. So you can actually close the next sale faster.

[00:30:25] So you just got to learn that that rejection is not, uh, it’s just part of business.

[00:30:32] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:30:32] Yeah, and I think it’s interesting. I think a lot of students think “Well, I can’t handle rejection, so sales isn’t for me”. And it’s not necessarily, um, I mean, some people innately are fueled by it, but I agree with you, Richard. It is something that it’s like a muscle. You have to learn it and practice it over time and it’s more about are you going to get energized to keep going. 

[00:30:55] Whether it’s with that prospect or onto the next one, right. And I think, um, sometimes students, they get, they get nervous about facing that rejection just because it’s something that they haven’t experienced before or they think oh, that’s not my personality, but a lot of sales skills I believe can be, can be taught and can be practiced over time.

[00:31:16] And it sounds like that’s something that you’re doing with your program and the competitions that you’re doing with your students as you’re, you’re giving them the opportunity to actually practice those things before they’re out in the wild, on their own, doing it.

[00:31:29] Richard Tate: [00:31:29] Absolutely. I mean, that’s part of a role-play. Unfortunately all my recruiters want to be nice and hire all my students. So when I ask them to have a very strong objection and say No, right. I have a little bit of trouble with my recruiters, you know, playing that really hard role. Um, so we’re, we’re doing some things, not being critical here Libby you do a great job all the time.

[00:31:50] So, but seriously, um, that’s a, that is a challenge, right? I mean, to get that into, into your training program, um, and to make it make it a learning experience, it’s, it’s hard. I mean, um, even in a training role, people don’t want to create, don’t want to create that, that, um, that tension, right.

[00:32:11] They don’t want to create that tension. They don’t want to transition that conversation even in a training mode to a, to a moment of tension, right. That puts the other person on the spot. And that’s really what a strong objection does, uh, in any sales call. So, um, we’re working on that. 

[00:32:28] Uh, objection handling happens to be one of our, our key factors that we, um, that we’re working on a JMU in our, in our sales programs, one of the things we measure and we try and get year-over-year, um, uh, um, improvement on. Um, so anyway, kind of diverts to a different point, but, um, that we do, I think it’s important to overcome rejection. 

[00:32:53] It’s important to overcome um, you know, difficult points in a conversation. And, and you have to include that in your sales training program because it happens every day. Otherwise the only other option is if it gets hard and challenging walk away, right. And a lot of folks I think, would prefer to walk away than accept the challenge and then articulate, you know, why they should still be in the room.

[00:33:19] Libby Galatis: [00:33:19] That’s a really uh, important point because in any entry-level sales gig, you have to kind of retrain your brain to understand that failure is just part of the process and trust that process. You know, you’re bound to make mistakes, the best sales person in the world made that first cold call ever. It’d probably sound pretty, pretty terrible, those first few conversations.

[00:33:38] So, um, I think trusting that process is really important, too. Um, with the change that you made working in the Navy to now, to then going into sales, is there anything that you wish that you had been better prepared for? With that transition or, or, you know, what do you think you wish you had been better prepared for moving into that role?

[00:33:56] Richard Tate: [00:33:56] Oh, well, I didn’t have, I didn’t have, I had no background, no business background, right. So I was a psychology major. I started out at UVA. I was actually going to go down the finance role. And in like most of my marketing students that don’t start in marketing, they started in something that didn’t work out for them and they did something else, right. 

[00:34:13] I don’t know, Kristin, did you start out on something besides marketing?

[00:34:18] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:34:18] I was going to be a marketing major, but I was very self-aware. I knew accounting and finance were not for me.

[00:34:23] Richard Tate: [00:34:23] Yeah. So I showed up and I showed up at Boeing. You know, when I first got hired in one of the first meetings I went to, um, they were using the term kegger. Compound annual growth rate, right. And this Senior Manager kept talking about keggers and all I was thinking about was “Hey, I play football and I play, you know, I was in the Navy.

[00:34:39] Great. We’re going to have a kegger, you know, I want to, I want to do this”. So the language, right. It took a language. You know, I went from, from, uh, from, uh, one, I went from a Navy perspective of language, right, to the business world. And so I was lacking a lot of that knowledge just in, just in common terms and things that we were doing, you know. Even sales pitch to me the first time I heard pitch, I mean, everybody in the, in the meeting where I was in, everybody was talking about pitches and pitches and sales pitch and pitch.

[00:35:10] And I’m like, I don’t like that word. I, you know, pitch just doesn’t, uh, it doesn’t resonate with me, but now, I mean, it’s just common, you know, common, common language, but it kind of threw me off keggers and pitches, right.

[00:35:26] Libby Galatis: [00:35:26] So when students are considering that the first role it’s, it’s a tough transition. I mean, you’re, you’re moving from student life to having to go into the nine to five. Um, it’s, it’s a big decision. What do you think is the most important attribute of a company or opportunity that students should be considering when they’re weighing out their options for that first role?

[00:35:47] Richard Tate: [00:35:47] See my biggest variation when I talk to students about, and what they ought to be thinking about is, you know, it’s an investment process, right? You’re in, you’re accepting a position with a company you’re investing your future with that company. I always ask my students, what is that company investing in you, right? 

[00:36:04] What’s the training program like? What are they going to do to help you be successful? Because we already talk about, you know, sales is difficult. It’s something you’re going to have to do maybe for a year or longer before you’re successful. Are you going to be struggling that year on your own? Or what’s that program that the company has, that’s going to help you through that first year?

[00:36:23] What’s the  training program look like, what’s the mentoring program look like? Um, how are they going to help you through that difficult time? Because what you really want, uh, is sort of a team effort through that difficult first year I think, right? And some companies will hire you as a sales person and just throw you out, you know, throw you out in the market and say, go do it.

[00:36:44] And some people thrive in that environment. Um, and many don’t, right. So I think, you know, a student should be looking, uh, for a company that’s willing to, if they’re going to, if a student is going to invest their future a year or two in a company, uh, they should be looking at what the company is going to invest in them to help them be successful through that first year or two.

[00:37:09] Libby Galatis: [00:37:09] Agreed. It’s tough having to consult them through all of that, but it’s a big decision like we were talking about. So I think that that’s extremely, it’s, it’s really good point.

[00:37:19] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:37:19] It can also be, you know, harder, more challenging this year, because it, if you’re not able to go in and interview in an office because of what’s going on, it might be hard to understand what is the training really like, what is the culture like, what’s the support system like. So, um, what are you noticing students are doing, or companies are doing right now to, um, to interview and hire and make the right choices now with everything that’s going on with the pandemic and working from home and even your classes being online.

[00:37:53] Richard Tate: [00:37:53] Yeah. So fortunately this semester I’m, face-to-face in both my classes and even that’s odd. Yeah, it has challenges too, right. You’re behind mask. I mean, I struggle with remembering names to begin with, and then you throw a mask and all you see as eyes instead of, you know, there’s people it’s hard to, it’s hard to pick up names.

[00:38:12] Um, so everybody’s transitioned to Zoom, right? Nobody from a corporate perspective, nobody has a travel budget. Um, I do have one company partner who has one recruiter who just survived COVID a couple months ago, right. And now she’s good to go for a while for at least six months according to science. So her company is letting her visit college campuses.

[00:38:35] And, and so I thought that was pretty interesting. Um, so they’re trying to engage back on campus, but doing it from that perspective we’re okay, she’s no longer at risk, right. But I think I haven’t really talked to Libby, but, but just about all our corporate partners are not budgeting anything for travel, right um, so, and everything’s taking place virtually.

[00:38:56] So, um, the challenge for a company like memoryBlue or any company is, is nobody really knows what you do or how you do it. And on your website and I can get some basic information, but that doesn’t really tell me, um, how you do what you do. It just tells me kind of what you do, right.

[00:39:12] Uh, so that, that how, that how process is, is where the interaction comes in. And from a, from a video perspective, you know, all our students are becoming much better at Zoom and the other tools that are out there and my sales call role-plays I actually, all my students have to share their screen and do a presentation, right, because I think that’s important. 

[00:39:33] That’s an important skill to have. Um, but I think from a from a recruiting perspective and a student perspective, it’s just the way things are taking place now. And we’re all getting better at it and becoming more efficient, right.

[00:39:50] Libby Galatis: [00:39:50] So we talked a little bit about the drawbacks of transitioning virtually. I think that a lot of universities have done a great job. It’s still continuing to engage students and have them participate in class and things like that um, I guess. Is there any positives that you’re seeing or silver lining with things moving virtually?

[00:40:06] I know that you said a lot of your classes are in person right now, but do you feel that there are some skills that are essential they could build in that virtual type world?

[00:40:13] Richard Tate: [00:40:13] I much prefer face-to-face interactions. But, you know, I think we’re doing some good stuff with the virtual role-plays.

[00:40:22] Libby Galatis: [00:40:22] No, I agree. Um, we’re really fortunate memoryBlue and, and a lot of other companies and, and education as a whole, to be able to have an access to the resources that we do to be able to successfully carry on, um, engage in this way. And, uh, I, I personally love the virtual aspect of it. We were talking just before this, about how you can now recruit in three different states in a span of two different days and just get that exposure, which is, uh, to a time like this and I, I would say that it’s a silver lining. 

[00:40:48] So, um, one final question about your professional life and then, uh, we have a couple of fun questions to ask you. Um, what would you say is the most rewarding aspect of being an educator of sales, you know, what, what is most rewarding to you right now in your career?

[00:41:04] Richard Tate: [00:41:04] So I had a student, it’s been a couple years ago in my sales class, who was a marketing major and wasn’t thinking about sales and she wasn’t very vocal in the class. She didn’t speak up in the class, she did pretty good at role plays, right. Um, but it wasn’t very vocal in the class. Uh, got hired into a sales role and a year later, I saw her, she won a national award and I saw her address an audience of about 300 people and a large auditorium from a, from a, um, a Dyess and a microphone up in front of everybody.

[00:41:37] And so to me, seeing that transition is extremely rewarding, right. And, and to be part of that transition, because what I saw was tremendous growth, you know, from the first time we met to then, what I saw, where she had transitioned to the job and then a company had taken her through a year or so, and now she was the number one person in that company and addressing a large audience, live audience.

[00:42:03] So that was fascinating. Uh, but really what, what motivates me is just when I can work with students to help them achieve the goals that they really want to achieve from a, from a job perspective. Um, I mean, that’s where I, you know, we talked about purpose earlier. That’s, that’s where I feel my purpose. I’m helping enable them to achieve the goals.

[00:42:27] And sometimes it’s help them define the goals that they’re trying to achieve. That’s part of the process too, but then watching that achievement take place.

[00:42:35] Libby Galatis: [00:42:35] That’s amazing. Um, and, and, and this role, like as a, as a recruiter for memoryBlue, I’ve hired so many SDRs in my time and I’ve seen them grow and progress in their careers, whether they end up in sales longterm, or decide to pursue a different career path. That all is so transferrable and your student that you were just talking about, she’ll carry that skill in later stages of her life as well and apply it elsewhere.

[00:42:55] So, um, I think that that’s the biggest takeaway that I’ve had in my experience working in this industry is just, it doesn’t pigeonhole you into something specific, you know, you can go on to be an educator. You can go on to be a manager and, and be a recruiter. Once you have that foundation and you have that confidence built.

[00:43:10] Um, so thank you so much for sharing, you know? Oh, I’m sorry. What were you gonna say?

[00:43:15] Richard Tate: [00:43:15] Yeah. So we talked about my Navy background and I’ll tell you, I mean, being a college professor was new to me, right. But I was a flight instructor for about eight years of my 29 years in the Navy. And when, when you’re sitting in an airplane with someone trying to teach them something, oftentimes they’re afraid, right.

[00:43:32] They’re afraid. And you have to give, develop the skills and build the confidence and get them through that fear so they can perform. It’s no different with our sales students and with our college students, many are afraid, right. They don’t know what lies after graduation. So it’s really just helping them through that, that, that fear.

[00:43:51] And it’s no different from what I, you know, what I did in the Navy. I mean, it’s the same process. It’s the same uh, and, and the goal is to get them through that so they can do, you know, whether it’s a job or the task, you know, that they’ve set out to do and be successful in it so…

[00:44:10] Libby Galatis: [00:44:10] It’s a fear of the unknown. You don’t know what a career in this industry looks like. You have this idea of what it might be, but until you have that information in front of you, it’s hard to commit with confidence. Um, and that’s basically what we’re all doing, working in this industry, educating about it.

[00:44:24] Shedding light to aspects of a career in this space that aren’t normally, you know, brought to light and in most cases. So I think that you’ve honestly dropped so much knowledge on this podcast episode, Richard, we appreciate it so much. Um, we want to switch gears and talk, uh, about a little bit more of a fun stuff.

[00:44:43] We have a couple of fun questions to ask. Um, this first one, we actually ask all of our candidates as they interview with us. So I’m curious about where you’re going to land here. Do you love to win or hate to lose more, and why?

[00:44:57] Richard Tate: [00:44:57] Oh, that’s a tough one. I’d probably hate to lose more, because that, that just recognized to me. Um, but they both are a reflection on how well you prepared and how well you perform, right. But there’s just more impact for me to lose, right. Uh, I feel that that failure and loss, I internalize a lot of that.

[00:45:22] And if I do fail or lose at something, it’s because maybe I wasn’t prepared enough. Or maybe I didn’t, you know, um, put the time in it that are required. Cause frankly, I mean, losing hits you directly, whereas winning, I mean, sometimes you win and you don’t really even expect to, right. Um, so, so that happened, I mean, sometimes even in sales, people will call you with the big order and you didn’t even know who they were, right. 

[00:45:48] And it’s a big win, I mean, that happens. Um, but when you go after something and fail at it, right, that hits a lot closer. So I think for me, um, losing, uh, would be my choice out of those two because I reflect that reflects on me and my preparation, whereas winning might reflect on something else.

[00:46:12] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:46:12] That’s a good point. That’s a very interesting way to look at it. Um, okay. This is another fun one for you, Richard. If you’re you’re doing great. Um, if you could have one billboard anywhere in the world, where would it be and what would it say?

[00:46:29] Richard Tate: [00:46:29] Oh, that’s tough. Now you guys know my Navy career. I took me to 34 countries where I got to spend at least one night.

[00:46:39] So I think at this point in my life, I would have a billboard in Haleiwa, Hawaii on the North, on the coast. And it would say “Surf here with me today.”

[00:46:49] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:46:49] That is awesome, great. So professor, pilot, surfer, the list goes on and on. Let’s wrap up with what are you world-class at? What do you think is like your super power?

[00:47:10] Richard Tate: [00:47:10] I don’t know ladies, I mean, you know, um, so, Libby might know but I have a hobby farm, right, here in Virginia and, and, you know, and I have a few cows. It’s just something I do that keeps me. A lot of people like to have, you know, at the end of the day they have a nice fish tank and they like to stare at their fish and that’s how they manage their stress, right. 

[00:47:32] So from my perspective, I like to have a few acres and have a few cows walking around. Um, so right now it’s winter time in Virginia. And when the snow’s on the ground, you have to feed them, right. And I, I have, I have thousand pound big rolls of hay that I feed my cows. And I do that with a forklift skid loader thing.

[00:47:53] And I start at the top of the hill and I lift up a thousand pound bale. I lower it and flip it up in the air just perfectly so when it hits the ground, it unrolls all the way down the hill. So right now, at this point time in my life, my superpower is to be able to feed 20 cows, a thousand pound roll of hay without ever getting out of my piece of equip.

[00:48:15] Okay.

[00:48:21] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:48:21] Richard, you are an incredible storyteller, we are really lucky that we got to spend some time with you today. And, um, for everyone listening, I think that you’ve kind of illuminated a lot of things to consider when they’re considering their first career, whether it’s in sales or it isn’t. So we really appreciate you spending some time with us today.

[00:48:43] Thank you so much.

[00:48:44] Richard Tate: [00:48:44] It’s been a lot of fun. I hope you edit out the bad parts for me, but thank you.

[00:48:50] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:48:50] Awesome.