Campus Series:  Stefan Sleep – Sales is Learned Through Experience

Guest-At-A-Glance

💡 Name: Stefan Sleep

💡 What he does: Stefan is an assistant professor at Kennesaw State University.

💡 Company: Kennesaw State University

💡 Noteworthy: Stefan graduated in finance and history from the University of Pennsylvania and started a career in the consulting side of things in HR. Then, he got his MBA at NYU Stern School of Business (Marketing, IT), did a couple of years at IBM, and went to the staff side of the academic world. Finally, Stefan got his Ph.D. from the University of Georgia, and since then, he has progressed through both the research and the teaching side, getting more and more into the sales realm over time. Stefan is currently an assistant professor of Professional Sales at Kennesaw State University.

💡 Where to find Stefan: Linkedin l Website

Key Insights

⚡ Be open to new ideas and use data and analysis. After his MBA, Stefan worked as a strategy consultant with IBM for a while. Stefan says that he learned a lot of lessons, which have helped him in his career: he understood the value of analysis and being open to other options, as well as the importance of relationships. “You’re working with so many different people in so many different units. Both within the group who you’re working with, getting to build those relationships — especially as you’re doing consulting teams — working with people that you want to work with, and I’ve kept those relationships over the years, even after I’ve left from there. So I think that was a big part, and I would say one specific project. I think the biggest takeaway was being open to new ideas and not just accepting what the client thinks, which opened my eyes a lot because the client had a direction they wanted to go, and we got into the project and looked at the data. So using that analysis and data to drive decisions versus kind of what you think, I think, was a huge part as well. Like, it was really eye-opening to have to come to a client and say, ‘This is what you wanted us to do, but this is what we found, and we think this is the bigger problem here.'”

⚡ Stefan’s sales classes can help you find a job. One of the important things in life is employment. You can’t function without money, and money doesn’t fall from the sky, so everyone wants some sort of job. According to Stefan, through his classes, students learn sales skills and are closer to finding a job. “The reason you’re an undergrad is to find a job on the way out. So yes, I’m there to teach about the skills on the sales side of things, but my end goal is that you find a job and that employers want to hire you. In the end, one of my favorite parts of the job is seeing the students get those offers, get the new jobs, and then even seeing them a couple of years out when they come back and tell how much they love it and the great things they’re doing going forward.”

⚡Practical classes and improvisation of future work are the best preparation. Although theoretical knowledge is fundamental, facing the actual job will be challenging and stressful without practical lessons. When you become an SDR, one of your duties will be cold calls, which often involve dealing with rejection and perhaps even somewhat rude behavior. For this reason, Stefan does simulations of cold calls in his classes. “We do a phone call one day, and they don’t love it. Calling me on the phone is awkward, but at least it’s a chance to try and practice. And it’s only once, but at least it gets on. Like, no matter how prepared you are, when you get on that phone for the first time, you’re going to be nervous. You have to overcome that. You have to know what you talk about when you get there. So, any experience helps going forward in terms of that.”

Episode Highlights

Differences between Undergrad and MBA

“MBA is an applied degree, meaning you’re not only learning in the classroom, you’re learning from your classmates, and that’s a huge part of it. So, getting to know the business world as a whole in terms of your experiences, other experiences, I think that’s a huge part of it. It’s much more focused on strategy and the overall business side of things, while the undergrad side is a little more technical in terms of just understanding what you do in each job. In terms of some of the opinions, I get a lot of questions from my students, like, ‘Should I leave undergrad and go get my MBA?’ I am vehemently against that. You need to work at least two or three years for an MBA to make any sense at all. So, that’s a big thing there. And then, part B is, as you think about the MBA, go somewhere that makes sense. If you’re working and do it part-time, and it helps you in your job, that’s perfect. If you’re going to go back full-time like I did, make sure you’re going somewhere that’s going to benefit you in the long term. There is a lot of cost-benefit to the MBA experience that you need to consider before you go.

Stefan: From a Consulting Role to Providing Career Services

“Wanting to have an impact, I looked at the higher ed realm in terms of what I was going to do next, so I ended up doing career services for an MBA program. I was up in Connecticut at this point, so my next move was to the staff side of the academic world. So, doing careers services at the Yale School of Management, working with MBA students, helping them with two components: one, helping the students in terms of preparing for the job market, and then secondly, making connections with employers in terms of getting them to the school and wanting to recruit our students. So that was not a typical sales job, but definitely, the relationship-building  component of sales.”

The Relationship-building Experience at KSU

“A lot of the relationship-building occurs maybe even outside of the classroom. So, there are activities in class. I’ll do some networking stuff and other things like that that at least get them to interact with other students. But then again, we have a number of partners with the sales center. So, we have regular things like lunch-and-learns, and we do internal sales competitions, and those are all partners that are a part of that. So that’s a lot where the relationship-building experience builds in from a kind of, ‘We’re going to put the employers in front of you, and you have to learn how to deal with them.'”

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Stefan Sleep: What the students really want to hear is kind of, “What does a day-to-day look like? What does the job entail? How do I get a job with you? How do I negotiate? How do I network? How do I prospect once I’m there?” So, yes, they wanna hear about the company, but to really build that connection in that relationship, it’s a matter of, “All right, here’s something  relevant to your career as a whole, and this is how we do it.”

[00:00:19] Kristen Wisdorf: Welcome back, hustlers, to another episode of Tech Sales is for Hustlers. It’s your special Campus Series. I’m your host, Kristen Wisdorf, and today, I am joined by Joe Reeves. Hey Joe, welcome back.

[00:01:19] Joseph Reeves: Nice to be back on.

[00:01:20] Kristen Wisdorf: We are excited to have you. And we’re also excited because today we have from Kennesaw State University, Stefan Sleep, the Assistant Professor of Pro, Professional Sales.

[00:01:31] Welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:32] Stefan Sleep: Thank you. Thrilled to be here.

[00:01:34] Kristen Wisdorf: We’re excited to have you as our second Kennesaw professor, obviously. Famously, in season one, we had Dr. Lowe on the podcast, so we’re very excited to be chatting with you today and learn all about your background in sales, what you’re doing with students down in Georgia. And, uh, we’ll take it away the same way we start kind of all of our interviews, actually, particularly with our sales students, but if you could take, let’s say, 60 seconds, give or take, no one has a time clock here, and give us your highlight reel. Tell us a little bit about you.

[00:02:06] Stefan Sleep: A little bit about me. So, I was gonna say I’ve been at Kennesaw State now for three years with a couple of other stops along the way, but, um, took me a little, a little while to get into this field, so. Um, started my career in the, in the consulting side of things on the HR employee benefits side. Went, got my MBA, did a couple years at IBM, then got onto the, the staff side of the academic world. Finally went back, got my Ph.D. at the University of Georgia.

[00:02:31] So, big couple days for the, the Georgia fans here. And then, um, since that, I’ve progressed through and kind of through both the research and the teaching side, gotten more and more into the, the sales realm over time. So, right now we live just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. Uh, have family, a couple kids in high school.

[00:02:50] So, love what I do and, and happy to be, be a part of everything they do.

[00:02:54] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s exciting. Okay, so let’s take it way back. Where did you grow up? Did you grow up in Georgia, or did you relocate there? Like, talk to us about high school version of you, and what you thought back then you wanted to do when you were a grownup.

[00:03:08] Stefan Sleep: Great question. It’s funny, I always, and I’ll get into this, I always say I’m, like, my fourth career at this point. So, I’m originally from Tampa, Florida, so one of my big passions is the Tampa Bay Buccaneers on the football side, so that’s where my rooting interests go. After that I did my undergraduate at the, the University of Pennsylvania, where I was kind of a, a double major in finance and history, which is an interesting mix.

[00:03:31] So, did finance for the practical side. So, in high school, I thought I would get into business. That’s why I went to Penn in the first place, to get into the business side, and then I, I took a couple history classes and just loved it. So, I think it helped a ton from kind of the reading and writing side of being a professor,

[00:03:47] but in terms of kind of finding a career and, and getting in the manage, in the, into the business world overall, that, that finance side was a little more practical than the history side, so. I was gonna say growing up played, I was into sports, played basketball in high school, um, still do, do some of that from the coaching and a little occasional tennis side of things these days, so that’s still a passion there in addition to the, the Fandom for the box.

[00:04:12] Kristen Wisdorf: So, okay. Penn is a great school. Did you always know you wanted to go to school out of State? Like, how did you land on UPenn?

[00:04:20] Stefan Sleep: So, in, my dad is originally from the, a couple hours north of Philadelphia where Penn is, so that was kind of drew me to the school. I, again, knowing I wanted to go into the business realm, I, I, I don’t think I really knew in high school what that meant other than I wanted to be a part of it in terms of, of where I was going for my career.

[00:04:37] Uh, and then actually, after visiting the campus, fell in love with it ’cause it’s in city, it’s in the middle of Philadelphia. Love the environment of being in the city and the city campus. So, I actually, I applied early to Penn. I was lucky enough to get in, so it was the only school I actually applied to, and I got into, and it, it, it, it worked out from there

[00:04:54] Stefan Sleep: and then, I was gonna say, in addition to the, the work side of things, I met my wife there as an undergrad, so that worked out pretty well as well.

[00:05:01] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay. Yeah, I concur. I think it’s such a beautiful school right in the middle of the city. It’s awesome. Probably very different than growing up in Tampa, though. And so, you graduated with finance and history. At what point during those, you know, four years at UPenn, I know you went in wanting to go into business, but, like, how did it kind of form and take shape as those four years progressed?

[00:05:26] And talk to us a little bit about what you did right out of college, first job right after graduation.

[00:05:31] Stefan Sleep: Sure. Um, so yeah, I mean, it definitely remained an interest in the, the business realm. I wasn’t sure I was gonna be a hundred percent a finance person, never actually really ended up in the finance world. So, definitely interested in the business side. That’s where I was going career-wise the whole time, especially as I progressed through the classes and I, and again, like, the, the math side, in addition to, I’m, I’m not a hardcore math person, but, like, the math component, statistics component of that,

[00:05:56] that business world. And then my first job was actually in the insurance industry, so that was where I started out as an underwriter, doing group disability underwriting. Not the most exciting job in the world, but the hours were great. So, after about a, I only did that for just a little bit over a year and that’s when I transferred into kind of the, more the consulting side of the benefits realm.

[00:06:20] So, I then, so I spent a year at Cigna. Then after that, I moved to a company called Mercer, which is what they were eventually called, and there I did a lot more kind of healthcare benefits consulting, so really enjoyed that job, was there for three or four years. And then, just to take the step forward,

[00:06:36] decided to get out of the HR realm if I, I didn’t know if I was gonna spend my career in there, and that’s when I decided to go back and get me, my MBA.

[00:06:44] Joseph Reeves: And if I could jump in on that, so you had been doing HR, you know, benefits and underwriting for a while at that point. What led you then to go get an MBA more on, on, like, the business side? Because I know you said you were there for that since the beginning, but what led to that jump?

[00:07:01] Stefan Sleep: Yeah. And, and exactly. It was, I, I definitely became more and more and interested in kind of both the marketing and IS side of things as I got through it, seeing that, that was more of an area of interest. So, I, I kind of, as I viewed the next 2, 10 years of my career, I was like, “Do I just want to be in an HR department and dealing with healthcare for the rest of my career

[00:07:21] or is now the time to make a change?” And I also will say it was late nineties. It was the, the start of the Internet and kind of the Internet boom, so that was another opportunity there. Saw some great opportunities in terms of what was coming with the Internet and new job opportunities instead of kind of the marketing and strategy side.

[00:07:36] So, those two combined were the reason to move on to the NBA at that point.

[00:07:40] Joseph Reeves: So, a bit of reading the room. And then, I guess, what, what, what of, of your personal interest then led to that

[00:07:45] for marketing and IS?

[00:07:47] I, I think it’s just from the marketing side, much more interested in kind of the, the customer and the, I, I, I enjoyed the client side, dealing with customers and kind of understanding why customers make the decisions that they do, so I think that originally brought me to the MBA and eventually to the Ph.D. in terms of, of what I wanted to do overall.

[00:08:04] Stefan Sleep: So, I, I think it was, enjoyed, again, there was the mass side to the consulting stuff, but getting more involved in the customer side and understanding customers and what they’re about and why they purchase and why they buy was a, was a big part of it as well.

[00:08:17] Kristen Wisdorf: I know, I talk to a lot of students in, in school, like, currently in undergrad, who, you know, while they’re interviewing, they have intentions to go back and get their MBA. Can you talk to our listeners a little bit about what the biggest differences were between your, you know, finance undergrad and your MBA and just school and just, I, I think people would find that quite interesting?

[00:08:39] Stefan Sleep: And, and I’ll jump in with my advice on it as well. So, I have some, some, some strong feelings on the MBA side of it, both with my students today as well. So, I mean, in terms of differences, the MBA, it’s an applied degree, meaning kind of you’re not only learning in the classroom, you’re learning from your classmates and that’s a huge part of it.

[00:08:56] So, kind of getting to know the business world as a whole in terms of kind of your experiences, other experiences, I think that’s a huge part of it. It’s much more focused on strategy and the overall business side of things, while I feel like the undergrad side is a little more technical in terms of just understanding what you do in each job. In terms of some of the opinions, I get a lot of questions from my students,

[00:09:16] like, “Should I leave undergrad and go get my MBA?” I am vehemently against that. I think you need to work at least two or three years for an MBA to make any sense at all. So, that’s a big thing there. And then part B is as you think about the MBA, go somewhere that makes sense. If you’re working and do part-time and it helps you in your job, that’s perfect.

[00:09:35] If you’re gonna go back full-time like I did, make sure you’re going somewhere that’s gonna benefit you in the long term. I think, I think, there’s a lot of, of cost-benefit to the, the MBA experience that you need to consider before you go to.

[00:09:46] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. I’m really glad you said that because the fact that the MBA is, most programs are very applied, and it’s based on experience, right? Like, working for a couple years is really what kind of makes that experience more robust and worth it, so that’s great.

[00:10:00] Stefan Sleep: Yeah. And that’s what employers are hiring on the way out. They want that previous experience. If you don’t have that experience, it, just the schooling itself doesn’t provide enough for them to pay you that, that extra amount with that MBA behind it.

[00:10:11] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. Wow. That’s, yeah, that’s a good perspective. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about after your MBA, I, you worked with IBM for a while. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience and, you know, as you kind of did that more application MBA degree, how did then your future and your career change?

[00:10:28] Stefan Sleep: Good. So yeah, so when I went to IBM, I went in as a strategy consultant. IBM is so large that they had an internal consulting group, so basically, our only client was other IBM businesses, so that was great in terms of getting great experiences with large business units. Also, the plus of not a lot of travel. I was based up outside of New York, where their headquarters is,

[00:10:49] so most of our clients were in that area, so it was great. I mean, it was fantastic. Just, I would say I worked on business units that were, like, 3, 5, 6 billion dollars in terms of their size, so the opportunity there, and again, to look at the strategic side of things, look at the numbers in that different component was, was really, really great in terms of, of doing that overall.

[00:11:10] On the other side, I, I learned that kind of the corporate world is not where I wanted to spend the rest of my career. So, some of the, the sales component comes from that, from consulting. You’re dealing with the clients, you’re selling new projects after one ends, so that was some of the sales experience.

[00:11:27] But then getting lost in kind of the size of IBM meant that, eh, the corporate world is probably not where I wanna be doing kind of PowerPoint presentations that go up three levels, and nobody sees. So it was, it was about impact and kind of having a bigger impact overall.

[00:11:43] Stefan Sleep: So, that’s interesting. Do you think your experience and potential, like, I guess your thoughts about being in the corporate role back then, would’ve been different had you worked for perhaps a smaller organization versus, like, the giant like that IBM is?

[00:11:57] I, I definitely think it might have had a difference, like, starting, working for a start. So that, I’ll take a step back. So, I mentioned kind of the Internet Side of Things going in the MBA, and that was my goal originally, was kind of, “Is there a startup small company I can go to?” Unfortunately, between when I started and when I ended is when that entire industry fell apart.

[00:12:15] So, those opportunities were not there anymore. I was actually fortunate. A lot of my classmates lost their job offers when they graduated. IBM was nice enough to keep us on at that point in time. So, this is 2001. It was not, not a great market from the job side. So, definitely, I think if I had spent more time at a smaller company, it just, that impact side made a, may have had a difference,

[00:12:36] but the IBM experience definitely, definitely led me a, a different direction, which I’m thankful for now, so it worked out all, it worked out well in the end.

[00:12:44] Kristen Wisdorf: What were some, I mean there are a lot of pros obviously though, of working for such a, a, you know, goliath as IBM, like, you know, your friends were getting their job offers pulled and that didn’t happen to you. What were some of, like, the biggest, I guess, lessons that you learned in that consulting role with IBM that helped you, you know, even leaving the corporate world, kind of like shaped your career and what you do now, even perhaps?

[00:13:10] Um, yeah, I, I mean, I think a lot of it was around the relationship side. You’re working with so many different people in so many different units, that kind of both within the group, who you’re working with, getting to build those relationships, especially as you’re doing consulting teams, working with people that you wanna work with.

[00:13:25] And then again, I’ve kept those relationships over the years, even after I’ve left from there, so I think that was a big part. And I would say one specific project. I think the biggest takeaway was kind of being open to new ideas and not just accepting what the client thinks, which I opened my eyes a lot ’cause, um, the client kind of had a, a direction they wanted to go

[00:13:45] Kristen Wisdorf: and as we got into the project and looked at the data, so kind of that, using that analysis and data to drive decisions versus kind of what you think, I think was a huge part as well. Like, it, it was, it was really eye-opening to, to kind of have to come to a client and say, “Yeah. This is what you wanted us to do, but this is what we found, and we think this is the bigger problem here.”

[00:14:03] So, I, I think that was a, a, a huge eyeopener as well in terms of kind of the value of analysis and then also being open to kind of what other options are out there in terms of where, where you wanna go as a business.

[00:14:14] That’s really interesting. So, here at memoryBlue, we work with clients in the tech space, hundreds of clients, and sometimes that will happen. We’re the boots on the ground making the sales calls, and we’ll have to go back to our client and say, “Hey, this, you know, persona or title or market vertical that you’re, you’re wanting us to prospect into just isn’t hitting

[00:14:34] and we suggest, you know, this other solution.” And so, our SDRs get kind of experience pretty early on in their career and having to go to a client and, you know, but thoughtfully use data and use the analysis to make their case and kind of push back. So, that’s very interesting that, you know, you also had that experience, and that’s kinda where the consulting piece comes.

[00:14:54] And I think you grow as a, at least a young professional when you have to kinda go make those cases, particularly to a client or the people paying you, right? 

[00:15:03] Stefan Sleep: And, and I was saying, you mentioned it, like, especially having the data side of it, like you can’t just go in and, “This is what we think. It’s gotta be.” All right. And I’m sure from your perspective, kind of, “We’ve made the calls. This is not working. This is why this is having better effect.”

[00:15:16] Same thing in that scenario, kind of, “All right. This is where the losses are. This is where your problems are. You really need to look here.” And it needs to be databased, ver, or fact-based, analysis-based versus just kind of intuition side.

[00:15:28] Kristen Wisdorf: And I think it, it pushes you, right? Especially if that’s something you’re not comfortable with, you know, as the individual. It’s, it’s helped, it’s like business maturity and development, which is great. And I think people forget that, whether it’s consulting or sales, you don’t learn just how to make a sale or make a cold call or, you know, run an analysis for a client.

[00:15:48] You’re learning all sorts of things as it relates to, you know, how you present yourself, how you make those cases, how you push your, you know, you’re well thought-out, well statistical-driven opinion, and I think it’s just a good reminder that you can learn a lot in a business outside the scope of just that one thing you’re there to do.

[00:16:05] Stefan Sleep: Agreed. 

[00:16:05] And I would say in just another project, it brings that up as kind of who you’re presenting to matters as well. Like, we, we presented to the senior leadership of IBM, and that was kind of a, a whole different level of stress and preparation just because of, of who they are and, and what, what they required from us and the, and the size of the team.

[00:16:23] So, I think kind of who you’re presenting to matters as well.

[00:16:26] Kristen Wisdorf: Absolutely. Okay. So, you said you learned in that role that you don’t wanna necessarily be in the corporate world. So, talk us through what happened after IBM.

[00:16:36] So, then again, ’cause of kind of that impact thing, wanting to have an impact, I looked at the, the higher ed realm in terms of what I was gonna do next. So, ended up doing career services for an MBA program. So, I was up in Connecticut at this point, so I did career, so I, my next move was to the staff side of the academic world, so doing careers services at the Yale School of Management,

[00:16:57] Kristen Wisdorf: so working with MBA students, helping them, I say two components. One, helping the students in terms of preparing for the job market, and then secondly, making connections with employers in terms of getting them to the school and wanting to recruit our students. So, that was, uh, again, not, not your typical sales job, but definitely the relationship-building sales component.

[00:17:16] Joseph Reeves: And we, I mean, a lot of the sales programs that we work with, again, I’m over here on the West Coast, so, like, we have a pretty good relationship with schools like Chico and Slow Down South. That is exactly what they’re doing, right? They’re connecting employers such as memoryBlue and a bunch of other companies all the way from the wineries up north to the tech companies here in the Bay.

[00:17:33] So, like, how did some of the skill set that you had already built at IBM start to translate into building out that pool?

[00:17:40] Um, yeah, I think it helped from a couple perspectives. One, a lot of it you’re dealing with the HR recruiting side. I think that goes back a little bit further to that HR experience, so was comfortable with the HR realm and the individuals in that area. And then from the IBM side, it was, again just working and dealing with clients and then again, providing, knowing that you have to provide that fact-based reasoning behind why to, to they would come here.

[00:18:03] Stefan Sleep: So, what’s great about our school, what’s great about our students? What have they done in terms of internships and other great opportunities and showing how that can apply to the company themselves?

[00:18:12] Joseph Reeves: And it sounds like in this case, again, ’cause you, you, it sounds like you left because of that impact that you wanted to make, but now your impact, instead of being for, like, you know, the organization, this sounds like it was a move to impact these students, right? And, and their trajectory.

[00:18:25] Stefan Sleep: Exactly. I was gonna say to this day, that’s one of my favorite things I say, I still view part of my job from having been in the corporate world for that long, that kind of the reason you’re in school, the reason you’re an undergrad is to find a job on the way out. So, yes, I’m there to teach about the skills, the sales side of things, but my end goal is that you find a job and that you’re, that employers wanna hire you

[00:18:46] in the end is, is is really what one of my favorite parts of the job is seeing the students get those offers, get the new jobs, and then even seeing them a couple years out when they come back and tell ’em how much they love it and the, and the great things that they’re doing going forward.

[00:18:59] Joseph Reeves: Or potentially become a part of that network of connecting to new employers.

[00:19:03] Stefan Sleep: Right. Exactly. That, that helps a ton as well.

[00:19:06] Kristen Wisdorf: So, you are uniquely qualified to help your students now kind of navigate what to do after college and what organizations might be a good fit for them between, I think it was like underwriting for insurance, HR consulting, sales curriculum, like, career center, like, you’ve had a lot of experience in all really within the business realm, which is what you wanted to do back when you were in high school,

[00:19:29] right? So, you’ve kind of tapped into all the different areas. Let’s talk a little bit about selling and teaching your students now and sales curriculum and do you use, do you draw from your previous experiences often? And if so, like, how, and how does that resonate with your students now?

[00:19:45] I, it’s starting to get old, but I mean, I still use my IBM experiences and what I learned there in terms of kind of the client interaction and, and as I mentioned earlier, understanding the client needs and, and providing what they want and need from there.

[00:19:59] Also, again the importance of relationships I hit on over and over and again throughout the course, I, I tell them upfront I’m gonna say relationship a thousand times and, and how important that is as we go. So, those are some of the, the big things I hit on there definitely. And then

[00:20:13] my wife worked in marketing forever, so she had interactions with sales, so I’ll use some of her old sales decks from when she did that. So, definitely spend a lot of time on the practical side of it in terms of, of what’s happening in the real world. Uh, because to me, sales is not, not something I can lecture and teach.

[00:20:31] Stefan Sleep: It’s something you have to do through experience and activities.

[00:20:34] Joseph Reeves: I think we share absolutely that, that same sentiment because it, it is a position that there, it touches so many different things from, like, the business acumen of working with, in, you know, internal stakeholders, your prospects and so on. Sometimes clients will think we’re crazy because we’ll get folks on the phones within two, three weeks of starting here because we have

[00:20:52] that foundational training, but we think that much of what you need to learn that’s, that’s relevant is gonna be on the job, right? You need to get, you know, on the phones, you need to start getting that cadence, uh, you need to start basically carrying out the work, and then we’re gonna build on that work.

[00:21:06] Stefan Sleep: A hundred percent. I agree. It’s so true. I mean, even within my classes, like, I’ll, I have them email me as a customer instead of class. We do a phone call one day, and they don’t love it, like, calling me on the phone is awkward, but at least it’s a chance to try it and practice it. And I mean, it’s only once, but at least it gets on,

[00:21:25] like, no matter how prepared you are, when you get on that phone for the first time, you’re gonna be nervous. You have to overcome that. You have to know what you talk about when you get there. So, it’s, any experience helps going forward in terms of, of that, so I agree completely.

[00:21:37] Joseph Reeves: It’s practical.

[00:21:38] Stefan Sleep: Yes.

[00:21:39] Kristen Wisdorf: Well, and I can promise your students that calling you, if they can call you and get the nerves out and do it well, they can call a stranger, a prospect. So, it’s a, it’s a good, like, little pressure cooker situation to get ’em, get those nerves rattled off. So, talk to us a little bit about Kennesaw.

[00:21:56] Obviously, we go to your university, you host the National Collegiate Sales Competition every spring, which is really exciting, and you talk a lot about building relationships, and that’s the experience you take with you. How do you, other than the practical, like, you gotta do to learn the sales technique, right, the technical skills, what are you doing with your students to coach them on that relationship building and get them ready for it, specifically at, you know, Kennesaw? How does your curriculum really prepare your students?

[00:22:20] I would actually say I think a lot of the relationship-building occurs maybe even outside of the classroom. So, we do a, a ton of, so, again, there’s activities in class. I’ll do some networking stuff, other things like that, that at least get them to interact with other students. But then again, we have a, a number of partners with the, the sales center.

[00:22:37] Stefan Sleep: So, we have regular things like lunch and learns, and we do internal sales competitions, and those are all partners that are a part of that. So, I think that’s a lot where the relationship-building experience builds in, is from kind of, “All right, we’re gonna put the employers in front of you, and you have to learn how to deal with them.”

[00:22:53] So, and again, the first time it’s nerve-wracking, but as you do it more and more, the better they get at it. And I, I think they see over time, especially from those employers that show up on a regular basis, that, “Oh, all right, they want to talk to us. They wanna be a part of this.” And at the same time, the students want the same thing.

[00:23:10] ‘Cause again, they see the end game of, of job offers at the end of it.

[00:23:13] Joseph Reeves: Yeah. First of went to the NCSC conference this last year, and it was beautiful, beautiful campus, kind of saw. And I think the second thing is, yeah, a lot of students don’t realize that that how much value is there for the employers too, who are trying to be a part of these programs. Like, you know, yes, you’re an undergrad, you’re still learning things, or even in, in grad school, you’re still learning the,

[00:24:27] you know, the name of the game, but these employers also absolutely want to get to meet you, wanna start building those relationships with you specifically, obviously running the programs, but especially the students, right? That’s their potential talent in the next couple of years. And, you know, if someone’s good, they’re probably gonna have some good friends.

[00:24:42] That also might be options. So, it’s, you know, there’s a huge networking opportunity, you know, becoming a part of your program or any of these sales programs with these schools and, and, you know, building that network before you even graduate.

[00:24:53] Stefan Sleep: Yeah. And it, and we love, I mean, it’s great. It really is that network between the two, between the employer and the student. And again, and I think you just said this, like, the biggest relationship builders, the individuals who find jobs of the company and then come back as alumni. And then, I mean, the word spreads among the students.

[00:25:10] Like, “We love this company, we love dealing with them.” And that, that’s a huge part of it. I mean that, that has a huge impact on kind of the students and, and their, their relationships with the companies.

[00:25:19] Joseph Reeves: I’ll chime in one more thing then. So, I guess with the things that you’re rolling out for your students, things like those lunch and learns and bringing employers in, potentially having them do mock presentations on certain products or solutions, what have you found then for your students to be, you know, the most helpful or the most effective for maybe giving ’em that “aha” moment or, you know, establishing relationships with those potential employers?

[00:25:40] Like, what was the big click for them?

[00:25:42] So, the Lunch and Learns is, in general, it’s been like an hour, and there’s food, and everybody’s happy. And originally, it started off just as companies coming in and talking about who they are in their jobs, which is great for 10 or 15 minutes. What the students really want to hear is kind of, “What does a day-to-day look like?

[00:25:58] Stefan Sleep: What does the job entail? How do I get a job with you? How do I negotiate? How do I network? How do I prospect once I’m there?” So, they’re much more interested. Yes, they wanna hear about the company, but to really build that connection in that relationship, it’s a matter of, “All right. Here’s something  relevant to your career as a whole, and this is how we do it.”

[00:26:15] I think that’s what, that’s what really works. If they feel like they, they got some value at it in terms of kind of what they’ve learned, that’s more broadly applicable than just the company itself.

[00:26:24] Joseph Reeves: Right. And I feel like I’ve seen something similar of like when speaking with applicants, whether at these programs, these events, uh, or even just in interviews, it’s what they want to, what I’ve seen them make that jump is the day-to-day. Right? Like, can they see themselves doing the job? Is it, you know, ’cause to them, it’s so foreign until

[00:26:41] it’s not, and, you know, they just need to be explained what that actually looks like. And once they get there, they can start wrapping their mind around, “Okay then, what does prospecting look like? What does sales outreach look like? What does my mentorship and training look like?” And once those pieces start coming into play, they start getting a very clear idea of what it looks like and then they can, you know, make that jump if that’s something that they’re interested in.

[00:27:00] Stefan Sleep: Agree. And I, and I would say the, the next part, I think, I think culture is such a huge component as well, and through those conversations, you, you get a good sense of what the culture of the company is, who the people are, and, and again, who you’re gonna work with on a day-to-day basis, so I think that’s a huge part of it as well.

[00:27:14] Kristen Wisdorf: We know students want, they want the nitty-gritty. They want, like, the real true stories of what’s gonna happen when they’re working there. And so, for, uh, several years now, when we go to college campuses, we try not to talk about memoryBlue, instead we’ll play actual call recordings of our SDRs making calls to real prospects, and we try to, you know, play calls from actual alumni from their university so they can hear, “Oh wow. This guy or gal was in my seat literally last year, and here he is, like, making a sales call now.”

[00:27:42] And so, we find they get really excited by that, and it, it doesn’t matter where they go to school, students just want, they’re hungry for that real, I guess peek behind the curtain, right?

[00:27:51] And, and the alum, I mean, the alumni, plays such an important role. I mean, they’re the people they know, they respect them, they trust ’em, and they like, like you said, when they hear them, they’re like, “Okay, they can do this. I can do it.” And then, “They love it. They’re still doing it. That means I can do it as well.”

[00:28:04] Stefan Sleep: So, I think just that, that school connection plays such an important part as well.”

[00:28:09] Joseph Reeves: So, when you made the move to Kennesaw, I mean, again, that’s a, a very established and robust program on the sales program, so I mean, what were you able to add? Like, what was your contribution to, you know, an already pretty fleshed-out program?

[00:28:22] Great question. Well, so I’ll do it both ways. I’ll, I’ll say what they added to me and what, they added to me, what I was able to add to them. So, um, I did at a couple different schools prior to Kennesaw. So, the most recent one was Georgia Gwinnett College, and that was basically a, a brand new sales program, just starting to get students ramped up.

[00:28:39] Stefan Sleep: I was basically the sales program at that point in time, so it helped me a ton by coming in and being part of a great, well-established program, but then in terms of what I was able to add, so. A little slightly different perspective with the, the consulting background, I’m also definitely a lot more research-oriented than some of our other faculties, so I have at least some back, some more background there in terms of kind of what’s going on in terms of new things in sales research, in terms of kind of I’ve looked into inside and outside sales, how they work together, different boundary, a spanning activities,

[00:29:12] so I think I was able to bring some of that research perspective and kind of what’s going on in the academic world to a lot of the practical stuff that was going on there.

[00:29:21] Joseph Reeves: So, uh, was it Gwinnett? Like, what was, what was the, sorry, go.

[00:29:24] Stefan Sleep: Yeah, it was Georgia. Georgia Gwinnett College was.

[00:29:27] Joseph Reeves: How, what was like the size of the students in that program, and then what was the jump to, to Kennesaw?

[00:29:33] Stefan Sleep: So, yeah, the school overall was about 12,000 people, and Kennesaw is over 40,000. So, it, it was, it was quite the change in terms of, and, uh, Georgia Gwinnett was a, a fairly new school. It was only 10 to 15 years old, so kind of going to a well-established, large university was a whole different realm.

[00:29:49] But I mean, it’s been great to have the structure around it. I have learned so much from kind of the great success Kennesaw had before I got there in terms of kind of our sales team, how we compete, and all of those different components. It really helped me in terms of strengthening that part.

[00:30:03] I, I, I kind of, I sort of knew what I was doing, now I feel like I, I really know what I’m doing after a few years then.

[00:30:08] Kristen Wisdorf: I get, it’s kinda like working for a startup and working for IBM. You’ve had both experiences, right?

[00:30:13] Stefan Sleep: Very similar. Very similar.

[00:30:14] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. 

[00:30:15] So, okay. Let’s say you’re sitting in, I don’t know, like, what’s like the go-to coffee shop for students in Kennesaw, but let’s say you’re there and I don’t know, a sophomore, like, a student happens to start chatting with you and you guys are talking about, you know, maybe this student is still undecided or general business major,

[00:30:34] what would you say to a, essentially a virtual stranger, but someone young and early in their career on why they should consider a career in sales, or at least taking sales curriculum?

[00:30:44] Stefan Sleep: One, I would say, “You don’t know what sales is yet. I don’t know if that’s the right way to say it, but you make sure that your perspective on what sales, on a sales career is not the, the used-car salesman. There’s a much different view in terms of how we see it and how we teach it.”

[00:30:59] So, that’s number one. I think number two is just, again, the job opportunities. If you’d like to meet people, if you like a lot of variety, if you don’t wanna sit in an office all day, any of those things appeal to you, definitely come and look at the sales side of things. I think it’s a, just there’s so many opportunities to do whatever you want.

[00:31:17] And a lot of people outside of the sales major end up in sales anyway, so it, it is definitely a bonus there. And then from the Kennesaw-specific perspective, we have a great group of students, like, they are dedicated. We have 25 to 30 that are around our office all the day. So, not, not only will you get the sales perspective from the teaching side, you will meet a great group of people that are similarly motivated, really love what they do, and really become good friends throughout the course of the program and will, will connect long after they finish from college.

[00:31:47] Stefan Sleep: So, I think it’s not only the learning side, but also the relationships they build with other students. They are, they’re such a dedicated and close-knit group. They’re amazing.

[00:31:56] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, and that’ll carry through. I mean that, that’ll be their sales, you know, major curriculum, sales club cohort, and then they’ll have that in their first job after college too, which is pretty cool. So, you kind of touched on it, but I’m curious to know, like, are, what do you think is the biggest misconception in sales?

[00:32:14] And then also, like, there’s, like a second follow-up question of that, which is, what are the biggest misconceptions your students have specifically that you have to, like, debunk any myths?

[00:32:24] So, yeah, I mean, I think overall the, the biggest misconception is this idea that as a salesperson, you’re just trying to get your commission, and you’ll do whatever it takes to close the sale, and it doesn’t matter. So, that’s, I think, in general, the biggest thing. And I think from the student side, it’s really interesting.

[00:32:42] Stefan Sleep: So, I teach a lot of our professional selling class, which is, like, the intro to sales class. It’s required for all marketing majors and all sales majors. So, I have a lot of students that don’t necessarily wanna be in the class, don’t wanna be a part of it. And I think it’s, again, it’s that, part of it’s that fear of talking to people they don’t know,

[00:32:59] the fear of rejection, those different components. And as you get through the semester, if you can get through that, say kind of, you’re not out there to sell, you’re out there to understand customer needs, provide some value, build a relationship, that sounds much more appealing than you’re gonna go sell something you’re told “no” all the time.

[00:33:17] So, I think that helps with the, the student perception overall. And then I, I would say a lot of the feedback I get, definitely get people who are like, “I’m through this class. I don’t wanna do sales.” That’s fine. But a lot of, “You know what? It took me outta my comfort zone. I’m glad I did these different things, that I got this sales experience, and it will help me going.”

[00:33:34] Kristen Wisdorf: And I mean, good on Kennesaw for requiring that for non-sale students because, you know, as a marketing major myself, my first job outta college was in sales, and I’ve been in sales ever since. So, I mean, the statistics show that most students are gonna end up in sales, at least business and marketing students,

[00:33:50] so better to prepare them, you know, while they’re in school with professors like you who can really get them ready and kind of, I guess, debunk some myths and have them be in a safe place they can practice and actually get that experiential learning.

[00:34:04] Stefan Sleep: Yeah, let’s say one of my favorite, my favorite things is when we get students from outside that marketing area, so kind of had some accounting students, IT, finance, entrepreneurship, so when you get those students as well, it’s, it’s really exciting to see that kind of, they see the benefit of the sales side of it as well.

[00:34:19] Joseph Reeves: And I, I think we can all agree there’s a lot of the skill set in sales, which, you know, much of which again, to your point, understanding, listening, you know, building relationships, it’s, that skill set’s gonna typically provide a lot of value if they do decide to go to a different function in business, whether it’s HR or marketing or even, you know, the, like, we have folks who finish our, you know, 12-to-15-month program and they go into a different sales function or, or a, a business function.

[00:34:43] So, it’s like there’s a lot of that skill set that still helps, even if it’s from the business acumen and the grit to, you know, some of the communication things that, that get taught, you know, in, in your program or ours.

[00:34:54] Stefan Sleep: Yeah. And, and I always say to my classes, I’m like, “And the further you go up through the organization, the more sales-organized or sales-oriented it’s gonna be.” I mean, from the consulting realm, like, when you’re at the top, that’s all sales. Internally, like, you’re from a different function, you’re selling yourself to your managers, other bosses,

[00:35:09] so it, the higher you get, the more sales-oriented is, and it, may not realize it today, but hopefully down the line that, that’s where the benefit is.

[00:35:17] Kristen Wisdorf: Absolutely. So, when you look back on your career, let’s think of, like, your corporate roles and your education experience, do you have any, like, I don’t know, big wins or stories that really stand out in your mind that you can share with our listeners?

[00:35:35] So yeah, I mean, a couple of my favorite things. So, at Georgia Gwinnett, like I said, new program, we went to one of these ICSC, which is another large, um, sales competition. Uh, it was completely foreign to them in terms of what these were, like, they didn’t even know. And they came out of there with five or six, I think we brought eight students down there, five or six that came out with jobs, one with memoryBlue,

[00:35:56] Stefan Sleep: so that was great. Like, I don’t even think they, they realized what they were getting into when they got down there, so that was fantastic. I was gonna say, a lot of the wins come from these competitions. Another one you mentioned, uh, Chico earlier, I went, when I was at Georgia Southern before Georgia Gwinnett, took some, a group of six student, or sorry, four students out the, the sales competition at Chico.

[00:36:16] Three of ’em never been on a plane before. I don’t know if any of ’em had been to California before. So, just kind of the experience outside of the experience was fantastic. Um, and then most recently, we were, again, ICSC. We went with Kennesaw in the fall, and, uh, we had two students win the Sales Management competition.

[00:36:35] Stefan Sleep: We had a student win the Speed Selling competition, and we finished fourth overall. So, like, all of those things from both the personal side, the job side, and then the, the team side are just my favorite parts of doing the job. I love the, I love the traveling with the students to the different competitions.

[00:36:49] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, that’s great. I mean, as someone Joe and I both go to these competitions, and we judge, it’s amazing. I did management case for the first time at ICSC, and it’s, it’s awesome. It was so fun. I was very impressed with all the students I saw. And I think it’s, you bring up a good point. You know, not only does sales open doors in a potential career, you know, really lucrative, exciting career for a lot of your students, but being in the sales programs opens a lot of doors by being able to travel and practice and meet people in all sorts of different organizations and companies and, you know, getting to go on a plane for your first time to California to do a sales competition,

[00:37:25] I mean, that’s amazing. And that’s something students even 10-plus years ago didn’t have the opportunity to do. So, sales really does open a lot of doors. 

[00:37:32] Stefan Sleep: Oh, so much. And I was gonna say, yeah, and that’s a huge part of it. The, the students love meeting the other students. They’re like, it’s great for them to find out there’s others in the same situation, find out what their programs are about, and they really enjoy the opportunity to kind of get these large and smaller competitions to, to meet other students from other programs and, and hear what they’re about and, and say, “Oh, there’s other people like me out there that wanna do this” and see how great it is.

[00:37:55] Kristen Wisdorf: When you are helping your students, you know, we’re just starting or about to start spring semester, and you’ll have a lot of seniors that are graduating this spring, how do you kind of guide them and mentor them as they consider what job to pick after graduation? What advice do you give them and, you know, sometimes it’s more stressful for other people,

[00:38:15] sometimes folks have a hard time making a decision or maybe they’re considering relocating, like, how do you work through the job selection process with them?

[00:38:23] Stefan Sleep: Yeah, and I, I think some of this comes from the previous side of doing this for a living for three or four years. So, I’m, I’m big on the front end with the resume side. I, I see a lot of ugly, bad resumes and that, that frustrates me. Like, I’m like, “This is not hard. Just take the time, do it the right way, use a good format.”

[00:38:40] So, both in class, I’ll share my format and then also I’m, I make myself available for help in terms of kind of, “If you really want me to look at it, I’m, I’m more than happy to do that.” And then to me, I think the biggest part is finding the right place for you, like, knowing what you want to do from the sales side.

[00:38:55] Do you, are you okay with inside for a little bit and then move to outside? That’s great. A ton of roles, so that’s what you’re gonna run into. And then I would say another big thing is find the right job. You get that first offer, and everybody’s like, “All right, this is the place I’m gonna go.” I’m like, “Is that where you wanna be?

[00:39:11] Make sure, don’t take, especially, don’t take it and then change your mind later, so make sure that you were finding the right place for you over the long term.” So, I think those are some of the big things. I’m definitely more on the front end and the back end. And then someone else in our office, Brent McCulloch, he has a ton of experience on the interviewing side as a sales manager,

[00:39:28] so he spends a lot of time on the interview side with them preparing for that.

[00:39:32] Joseph Reeves: And I think you mentioned something so important there, too, because, you know, the memoryBlue model is plugging in typically fresh talent into our tech company network, and, you know, they basically get to try out these sales folks, can hire ’em at some point, but it’s a big piece of advice I try to give to any of our folks,

[00:39:46] it’s like, “It’s the first offer, yes. Is it the best offer?” Right? Because it, it, you could get so, you know, shiny eye, you can get, have some golden ticket syndrome, right? Thinking like, “Oh my God, it’s amazing.” But, like, you know, in the world of tech, there’s some pretty, uh, juicy opportunities out here,

[00:40:02] so sometimes it, it’s good to wait a little bit longer and, and see what else is out there before jumping onto that first op. And especially these students in these programs, they also are kind of in the same boat. They have so many opportunities, and you’re already, you know, this, this, network that they get to try out and, and see what else is out there.

[00:40:19] Stefan Sleep: Yeah, they, they see that first offer. They get so excited. It’s like, it, make sure it’s the right one. I know it’s a full check and it’s a job, but you’re gonna have other opportunities, so.

[00:40:28] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, better take your time than, like you mentioned, except and then kind of back out later, so yeah. 

[00:40:34] Stefan Sleep: Drives me crazy.

[00:40:35] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. All right. Well, we wanna transition to a couple fun questions. These are just silly. Don’t overthink it. Just answer the, you know, first thing that comes to your mind. Okay. Which feeling is stronger for you?

[00:40:49] Loving to win or hating to lose?

[00:40:53] Stefan Sleep: It’s gotta be, I, I, that’s funny. That’s a great que, I think it’s changed over the years. Now I think it’s stronger for loving to win. It used to be hate. I think my high school days I was, I hate to lose and probably handle it the best at times, but now it is definitely more. 

[00:41:08] Kristen Wisdorf: The basketball days. You were hating losing. 

[00:41:10] Stefan Sleep: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:41:10] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah.

[00:41:11] Stefan Sleep: But now, now it’s loving to win and doing some of the, uh, yeah, like, doing it both with the kids in terms of coaching some of their sports.

[00:41:18] It’s the, it’s more en, enjoy the wins and, and don’t get as upset by the losses as I used to. So, that, that, that helps a lot.

[00:41:25] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay. This is an interesting one. So, what do you think, if you had to pick the most important, would it be working for a great boss at a company or selling something where you’re like, “Eh, it’s okay. It’s not, like, the shiny new object,” right? Or working for, like, a great company, really amazing product, hot new product on the market, and a not-so-great boss?

[00:41:45] Stefan Sleep: For me, it’d be working for a great boss. I may, I’ve mentioned the culture things a couple times. I mean, culture matters so much to me in terms of kind of where I wanna be, what I wanna do, and I think a lot of that comes from the boss management side. So, yeah, no, without a doubt that, that would be the biggest thing.

[00:42:01] Kristen Wisdorf: Well, I happen to personally agree with you as well. I think you could be selling the hottest new thing, you know, in our case, technology on the block, but if you don’t have the right support system and leadership and someone who’s kind of gonna help you and be in your corner, then it doesn’t really matter what you’re selling.

[00:42:15] Right?

[00:42:16] Stefan Sleep: Right. Yeah, a hundred percent. And that, yeah, I was gonna say, I think it ties that move from kind of the IBM to the higher-ed world. From the, from the pay side, it wasn’t worth it, but from the culture, happiness, and life side, it was 100% worth it, and it, so that’s kind of the view there.

[00:42:30] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, that’s great. That’s a good lesson for people too. Okay. If you could have one billboard anywhere in the world, where would it be, and what would it say?

[00:42:39] Stefan Sleep: What would it say is a great question. Where would it be, and what would it say? Of the places I’ve been, I was gonna say probably the one of my favorite places in the South would be, like, the South of France. Spent a couple weeks down there and really loved it, so that gives me a chance to go back there and see it, I hope.

[00:42:53] Is that part of it?

[00:42:55] Kristen Wisdorf: Sure. I like that. That sounds good to me. Mine’s in Italy, then.

[00:42:58] So, yeah, exactly. I’m like, if it’s right, if it, if it’s, it needs to be around here, it’d be, it’d be at Hilton Head so I can drive, as I’m driving from Atlanta to Hilton Head, which is my, my favorite place to go for the beach. What would it say? I mean, “Have fun,” right? If I’m going on vacation, why not.

[00:43:12] Joseph Reeves: I, I have kind of a two-parter question. So, if you could suggest one book for, say, your students or someone who’s stepping into their career, what would it be? And then maybe it’s one and the same, what is your favorite book? I was gonna say they’re probably the same, and I actually, I use it in class. So, I use “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” I think is fantastic. I’m sure it’s, it’s a common favorite, but it’s something that I think the advice, yes, it’s practical and kind of after you read it you’re like, “Oh yeah, I should know that already,”

[00:43:41] but I love it. I think one ’cause it’s fairly easy to read, it’s common-sense advice, the examples, and then just the feedback I get from the class. The student, the students love the book. They’re like, “This is great. It actually changed my way of thinking. I realize you need to implement this in my life, not just as part of the sales process.”

[00:43:58] Stefan Sleep: So, I actually, my final exam is based on that book just ’cause I think it’s so important that they, they read the book and apply it to kind of not only their own lies, but the, the sales realm.

[00:44:08] Kristen Wisdorf: Totally. It’s a classic for a reason. Alright. Well, Stefan, we have enjoyed having you on the show today. Thank you so much for joining us and dropping your experience and wisdom, and, um, we’re always excited to chat with Kennesaw and see you at the NCSC this spring.

[00:44:26] Stefan Sleep: Yep. Thank you for the time. Appreciate it, and we’ll see you in March.

[00:44:29] Kristen Wisdorf: Sounds good.