Campus Series: Steve Kozak – Don’t Fear Failure

Your career will most likely not be a clear-cut path. Use that to your advantage! Former salesman Steve Kozak is a huge believer in utilizing experiences and acquired skills from one job as building blocks for success in the next.

In this episode of the Campus Series Podcast, Steve Kozak, now a professor in marketing and sales at James Madison University, shares his many lessons learned since beginning in sales, transitioning to academia, and now blending the principles of sales and marketing to prepare his students for the business world.

Guest-At-A-Glance

💡 Name: Steve Kozak

💡 What he does: Steve is a professor at James Madison University.

💡 Company: James Madison University

💡Noteworthy: Steve got into sales early in his career, combining sales and marketing. Currently, he teaches principles of marketing and advanced sales.

💡 Where to find Steve: LinkedIn

Key Insights

⚡Don’t fear failure. Instead, embrace your mistakes. You’ll be surprised how much you can learn from them. In Steve’s case, it was knowing when to stop talking. ”Every time I kept speaking, I lost; I never got the contract. And there were times when I stopped and put down the pen. As painful as that was for a 23-year-old, it worked out well.”

⚡A good teacher is a lifelong learner. However, as Steve says, a couple of other things added to his qualification. “One thing I love about marketing is the creativeness. It is being able to come up with something creative. So, in this case, I have content to bring to the classroom, and how do I deliver it in such a way? It’s, as I think of it, a performance. Each class is like a performance. […] My learner is learning for the class. So while I’ve got content, how do I make it applicable, interesting, and relevant to what the students I’m teaching today are thinking about and in tune with? So there’s that piece. There’s the wow factor: I get a chance to come and be Steve at the center of attention.”

⚡The collective wisdom of your team goes a long way. That’s why companies that want to set themselves up for long-term success should look for individuals who add to the culture but may not fit the culture. ”You see a perspective, but when your teammates say something, you’re like, ‘Wow, that is right; that is great. I never saw that.’ And that happened in the classroom. The more I saw them perform role play, the more I saw them ask questions, and the more I saw the keenness of the students and their teammates to give feedback to one another. I realized where they were right and what those significant little elements were that could move them forward.”

Episode Highlights

Repetition Makes Perfect

”Your goal is to move it forward and read the room a little bit too. That’s also a lot because you get better at seeing and reading the room.

I was in a closing situation probably 10 to 12 times a week. Most people are two, three, or four times a month, depending on the sale or less. When you see all those interactions, it builds your skillset. It builds that knowledge bank. You’ve been there; you know how to handle it. It’s not as scary the next time it happens.”

Steve, the Teacher

”My previous boss Penny had suggested that I get some executive coaching; I’m a critic and a cynic, and I’m like, ‘Well, whatever. What do I need coaching for? Whatever challenges I have, I’ll figure them out.’

And I will tell you, it changed my life. That changed me and made me a better husband and father and a better leader. And so, one of those things I worked on with my executive coach, what came out of it was, ‘I might like to teach and enjoy being in the classroom.’

I gave it a go that first semester back at Towson University; I was teaching services marketing, and I loved it. I ended up teaching full-time at the University of Baltimore. I was teaching entrepreneurship and management, marketing sales. I did that for two years; I loved that. I went back to Towson and went back to full-time teaching as an adjunct.”

Taking Role Plays to the Next Level

”In the normal role play class, they learn a lot about sales and do two role plays. We have great facilities here. So students will schedule time, go into a room, meet with a buyer, and have 15 minutes to do their role play.

There’s a scenario that they’re given; they follow certain things for grading. […] When they get feedback, the professor typically can go back and give them some feedback live in the video they’re supposed to watch. […]

I changed every aspect of that. So instead of two role plays last semester, I had four — where you’re going to sit in the classroom, and the role plays are gonna be done in the classroom. And this semester, with 1815 students, they’re going to see 40 to 48 role plays.

So again, that’s that repetition thing. They’re going to see their peers do role plays as well.

They’re going to see things that are working well, things that could be better, and as I call it, they’re going to find their swim stroke.

On top of that, they’re going to get feedback, not only from me but also from their peers because their peers are assigned to another sales team.”

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Steve Kozak: Can never judge people.

[00:00:02] Sometimes we would judge, you know, you pull up to a big house or by the way they’re dressed or something, and I quickly learned, never judge by what you believe. It’s all about their ability and wants.

[00:00:14] Welcome back, hustlers, to another episode of Tech Sales is for Hustlers. It is your special Campus Series. I’m your host, Kristen Wisdorf, and I have Jeremy Wood joining me again today. Hi, Jeremy.

[00:01:11] Jeremy Wood: Hey, Kristen. Thanks for having me back.

[00:01:14] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. Jeremy, you’re, I know, it was touch and go, but we decided to invite you back. Um, today we’re super excited. We have Steve Kozak on the podcast. He is a new-ish professor at James Madison University. Welcome to the podcast, Steve.

[00:01:29] Steve Kozak: Well, thank you. I’m glad to be here.

[00:01:31] Well, we’re really glad to have you. You might know the drill, but

[00:01:35] in order to just kind of kick things off, get things going, we like to start the same way we actually start when we interview your students, which is if you could take 60 seconds, give or take and tell us about you, give us your highlight reel, let’s call it.

[00:01:50] Steve Kozak: Sure, sure. So, uh, started, you know, college engineering, but went over soon found marketing, loved it. Got into sales early in my career and did a lot of more, so combination of sales and marketing, but I will tell you, throughout my career, I was always selling, you know? I don’t care if you are in a direct sales role or if you’re in the membership manager for some nonprofit organization where you’re selling memberships or,

[00:02:17] you know, you’re an entrepreneur looking for funding for your business, or you’re trying to recruit people, or, you know, when I run a Greater Baltimore Tech Council, I’m looking for sponsorships, memberships, so I was always in a, you know, as I look back, I was always in a selling environment, and I think what’s unique is I bring that perspective to my classroom that I teach and I teach the advanced sales class here at James Madison University.

[00:02:42] I joined the department in the fall of 2022 last semester, and I teach both principals of marketing and the advanced sales class, and I love both, and they’re great.

[00:02:53] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s awesome. And I, you probably know this, obviously, but Jeremy went to JMU as well, so we have a long history of hiring Dukes here at memoryBlue. So, you’re in good company. Well, I wanna know a little bit more about kind of like Steve before he graduated college. I know you went to school in Maryland.

[00:03:12] Did you grow up in Maryland? Is that where you’re originally from? Take us back and tell us a little bit about kind of growing up where you grew up and how you landed on your university.

[00:03:21] Steve Kozak: Yeah, so grew up in the Baltimore area. I originally, gosh, probably in seventh grade, I was always good in math and science. He’s actually a student, a friend of mine, I’m still in touch with this guy, Brian, came one day to our engineering drafting class and said, “I’m gonna be an engineer.” I was like, “What’s that mean?”

[00:03:38] He’s like, “If you’re good at math and science, you can be an engineer and make a lot of money.” So, went home, told my parents this. My father said, “You should go in the aerospace engineering.” So, from about eighth grade I went to college at Maryland and I was in the aerospace engineering program for the first three and a half, two and a half years of, of school there

[00:03:55] and I soon found out that I was possibly not the smartest person as my parents led me to believe. I was getting by, but I was getting, you know, mentally, I mean, I went to a private boy school in, in Towson and I did very well, graduated, you know, near the top of my class outta 300, I think I was like in the top 15,

[00:04:12] Steve Kozak: but at Maryland, I was getting crushed. And so, I went to a marketing class one day. I was talk, you know, talking to my roommates, “What’s, you know, what’s your job? What’s your field? What’s your degree gonna be in?” And one of my good still friends today that I actually bring, bringing in my class this semester, Guy B., took me to his marketing class and I sat there in 5 minutes and I’m like, “This is, this is what I wanna do.”

[00:04:32] And so, and it was interesting now where I am, both my parents were kind of in sales. My father was in car sales for many, many years. Both used, new, and also fleet, so there was that sales piece in my career. And then my mother was in, worked for General Motors that it was called Motors Insurance Corporation, which was the Financing Armor, General Motors

[00:04:53] and she was the person that when you were setting up your financing, she was the liaison, but then she was even in sales. So, both my parents, you know, I grew up in a household where they would talk cars and sales. It was, you know, part of the, part of the dinner conversation every night. So, it was a natural for me to get out and with my degree and go into sales.

[00:05:11] And ironically, come up, but one of my first sales jobs was Encyclopedia Britannica. I sold encyclopedias for about 14 months. I will tell you I survived. I learned a whole lot about sales probably, you know, most people are in a closing situation, I don’t know, maybe 3 or 4 times a month.

[00:05:34] I was in a closing situation probably 12 times a week. So, that repetition of just doing that over and over and over again over the course of 14 months, you know, I saw a lot, did a lot, made a lot of mistakes, but I also learned a lot that I used throughout my career. So, in that sense, it was instrumental.

[00:05:51] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay. We have to dig into that because, so that was your first job at, like, your first sales job?

[00:05:57] Steve Kozak: No. So, my first sales job was a company called Wallace Computer Services, who sold ribbons, labels, office supplies, really good job. Northern Virginia. I was near, out by, I could think of the road, but in Reston area. And, and my roommate guy was selling Britannica as a branch manager, making an absolute killing his first year

[00:06:17] and, you know, I did the, I did the Ben Franklin, you know, the pluses and minuses, and there was only one plus the potential for money. The minuses were a longer list, which included, you know, nights, weekends. It was a lot, and, you know, so I made the, I made the move. It was never a bad move, but I made the move to switch after 6 months.

[00:06:37] Steve Kozak: And I remember when I told my boss that I was switching, going to Britannica. He literally just sat there for a minute and was like, “Are you,” asked me if I was crazy. Like, “This is a good, like, what do you, what?” And the first weekend, so, and, and even that first weekend, my boss Maxine took me to, we were in

[00:06:54] the trade show area, so we would go to trade shows, consumer, you know, retail, but also businesses, and we also did the, like, we would go to the military bases, the APs and I’d stand there and ask people if they wanted to enter a drawing. And my first weekend on the job, I joined Maxine there, and there was many moments that first day I’m like, what am I, “What am I doing?

[00:07:15] What am I doing with my career?” And, and then that, after I got one of my leads out of that, I, you know, I followed the script, I did the thing, I went to, you know, went to the house, called, did the follow up right there and I, my first presentation I sold, I sold a set, and I made I think like 275, and I was like, “Okay, I can do this,” so.

[00:07:35] Kristen Wisdorf: Wow.

[00:07:36] Steve Kozak: There it was.

[00:07:37] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s incredible. So, was that like, talk to our listeners a little bit more about, like, what that job entailed? Did you do, like, did you do a lot of that, like prospecting to get leads and then would call to set up in, in-house appointments? Did you literally go door-to-door? Like, what was like a typical day or week like in that, that role?

[00:07:55] Steve Kozak: Yeah, so, so we didn’t do door-to-door, but it was kind of like door-to-door in the sense that I was calling people. So, we would get leads from the headquarters. Uh, and if you’ve seen Glengarry Glen Ross, it felt a little bit like that, but, you know, you have the Glengarry leads, so some were, leads were cheap, 50 cents each

[00:08:12] and some leads were more expensive. So, like, when people on the, you know, the television ads, it would, you know, call in the 800 number and say, “I’m interested in the set of books,” we would get those leads, and they were more expensive, like, probably, I wanna say like 15, 20 bucks each, right? And so, you could generate your own leads, obviously, if you could, went out to, we were at Sears, we were at Borders, we were places like that.

[00:08:33] Steve Kozak: Those were my own leads that I could self-generate, but then I could also buy leads. And so, once you bought the leads, they kind of hung as a debt on you, against your commissions, and, and so anything that you sold, depending on how many leads, you know, if you bought, you know, $200 worth of leads and you sold two sets of books that week, made 275 twice, you know, and you made 550, you’d, you know, be charged whatever against that, and that was your commission for the week.

[00:08:56] And so, yeah, a lot of the days I, while it was nice, I didn’t go in the office until, like, 12, but I was as a quote-unquote branch manager, I was there doing training, you know, we’re constantly hiring people. It was interesting looking back, I, I thought one of their models, sales models was actually to get a lot of people to go through the training course.

[00:09:15] Steve Kozak: ‘Cause as people went through the training course, they ended up buying the books, you know, because you became sold on the product. But I did a lot of training, the sales training there to answer questions and then certainly, you know, you would start at some point making your sales calls to set up your appointments for that night, that week, something.

[00:09:32] And then, you know, get in the car and, and go out usually, like, around 5:36, start your appointments, try to get, if you could get 2, 3 in a night, that would be a home run, but at least get 2 in a night. And sometimes you drive there and sometimes, you know, they cancel at the last minute, so then you’re out somewhere on the road getting, you know, some fast food, something or trying to, you know, stopping in a payphone and making another phone call to try to get another appointment in and then getting home sometimes at 9, 9:30 at night and, you know, and then the next morning you do it all over again.

[00:10:02] Steve Kozak: And, you know, there were great days when you got the sale, and there were days or weeks where you, you know, you didn’t. And I remember one week I was up at the New York State Fair, so we went New York, we went to Richmond, and I was up there for basically two weeks out on a, a, a, you know, my own expenses.

[00:10:18] I paid for it, basically working in the outside the poultry area, trying to get people to come by. I think I, you know, you know, you sit people down. I can talk about that also if you’re interested, but I probably sold three or four sets of books, but my costs were, I equaled out, and it was one of those moments when I got back, I set, I think I set my apartment for two or three days in the dark and said, “What am I doing?

[00:10:43] I think I need to, I, I just wasn’t, you know, I need to do something else.” So, I went back. That’s where I, the decision I made to go back to grad school.

[00:10:49] Jeremy Wood: So, one of the, you mentioned when you first talked about this role that you, you learned a lot in this position, and you also made a lot of mistakes. And I think those things a lot of times go together. I think we can always learn a lot from our mistakes. So, what were some of the mistakes that you made that you, that really helped you learn better sales methodologies?

[00:11:14] Steve Kozak: Wow. Yeah. Well, one of them I bring into the classroom where I talk about contracts and going through that, you know, one of the things they taught us, sounds horrible, but they said, and part of the sales training, you know, once you go through the contract and you made the offer, stop talking, right?

[00:11:27] Just put down the pen and, you know, as they would say, shut up. The first person who speaks, again, this is horrible, but the first person who speaks loses, so to speak, that’s what they said. But, you know, you’re opening the door, an invitation, the more you speak about once you’ve laid out your program. And that was,

[00:11:43] you know, I can tell you every time I kept speaking, I lost, I never got the contract. And there were times when I did, you know, when I just stopped and put down the pen as, as painful as that was, as a, you know, 22, 23-year-old being silent in that moment, it worked out well. The other thing was, I think just going through, you know, we had, you know, you, you can never judge people,

[00:12:08] you know? You would ju, particularly in the retail sale, you would, sometimes we would judge, you know, you pull up to a big house or by the way they’re dressed or something, and I quickly learned, never judge by what you believe. It’s all about their ability and wants. Right? And so, um, you know, this one day I drove up and, you know, there was, house was super big.

[00:12:29] I mean, you know, there, I think the foyer was probably the size of my living room, and dining room combined that I grew up in. And I thought, “Oh, for sure I’m, you know, I’m gonna get a, get a good sale here.” And they asked me at the end of the presentation if we sold used books, which we did not. And they, you know, after multiple attempt to close, they gave me, you know, “Won’t give you a call,” and it was dead in the water.

[00:12:49] So, that was that. My next, literally my next appointment, I went to an apartment complex. A single mom with a 2-year-old was running around, barely any furniture, was not, you know, just, it looked a lot different than the house I was just in. When I got done the presentation, she asked me if we take, took credit card.

[00:13:05] I said, “Yes, we do” and she bought the set of books. So, it has nothing to do, it had to do with desire, want, you know, and particularly in that, in that type of sale. The other thing I think I learned too is, particularly in that retail, it’s advances, right? So, now in the business business sale, you’re looking to move stuff forward with advances and the retail in that environment, particularly when you’re on the, you know, a trade show, you’re doing small little closes, it’s advances.

[00:13:29] So, there were certain things that we would do or ask to get that advance, to move forward, to move forward. Because if not, you don’t wanna spend 15, 20 minutes with a person and your lost time. So, it’s all about moving them forward, and if they continue to advance, then you just can continue through till you got to a contract.

[00:13:48] And there was probably 4 of them. And this one show we were at in DC, it was a hairdresser show. Wow. Remember that. And the, the person there, there was a couple, and my boss was there and, you know, we kind of would work together. And I tried to get ’em both down, and the husband said, you know, “I’m gonna be back.

[00:14:06] I wanna look over here,” which is usually a kiss of death in retail. And I, I did the trial close, the one, and they, they closed. And so, and my boss was over there, “Sir, if you wanna get down, we can get you whatever.” And, you know, working with me, trying to, you know, and it just wasn’t happening. He leaves and I’m thinking instead, you know, “We’re not, this is not happening today.

[00:14:24] Try to close. “Deal.” “Good.” So, I continued. Eventually, the husband comes back, I’m like, “This is great.” But then the wife gets up and I do the trial close with the husband, and he, you know, and so all along every, all, all through all four of these stages, you know, between, like, asking ’em at the podium between taking ’em back to the books and doing a, ask there, between sitting them down between, you know, they’re closing, but they’re, I am absolutely, I do not have their undivided attention.

[00:14:48] I don’t have both decision-makers there, and it should be dead in the water. But I just continued through the process, and at the end, eventually, he came back, and where she left or something, one of them came back, he left again, and she said, “You take credit card?” Yes. And she said, “Great, I’ll be back in 15 minutes.

[00:15:05] I’ll, I’ll sign whatever then.” And I was like, “Okay, great.” And I looked at my boss and, you know, I was like, that is the weirdest. I mean, I, that I, I, this is the weirdest thing, but it just, it spoke to, you know, kind of just the dedication, the diligence, going through it, staying with it and, you know, ma making sure that you’re having those advances moving the sale forward, which again, is something that I bring to the classroom today.

[00:15:29] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s really great. You mentioned earlier, like, how you never really wanna, like, judge by, like, a book by its cover, essentially, to use the encyclopedia analogy here. But it’s very true, and it happens often, you know, with our new employees. They assume that maybe a company or an account can’t afford their client’s software solution or they assume because of someone’s title that they’re not a decision-maker,

[00:15:53] but you really don’t know until you have those conversations, and it’s about, to your point, sticking to the script or running the process because you don’t wanna, you know, sell out of your own pocket and assume things before you actually give it a go and try. And that’s a good lesson for obviously back then, but probably for your students now as well.

[00:16:11] Steve Kozak: Yeah. Yeah. I bring both of those definitely in the classroom. We talk about advances, and it’s a little bit different ’cause it’s a classroom environment versus a real environment, but you know, being aware that your, your goal is to move it forward and, you know, and to read the room a little bit too, you know? That’s also something I think that I learned

[00:16:29] a lot because again, being in the repetition, which I, I spoke to Jeremy about this, you know, in the class, I think that repetition, you start to get better about seeing the room, about, you know, and, and it, it’s reading the room and so that’s a big part of it as well. And again, that happens the more times that you’re seeing it, that you’re in, like I mentioned early,

[00:16:50] you know, I was, I was in a closing situation, you know, probably 10, to 12 times a week. Most people are maybe, you know, in a, maybe, I don’t even know, maybe two you know, maybe 2 times a week, maybe, maybe three or four times a month, depending on the sale or less. And so, by getting through those repetitions, you know, and you guys know it’s in sales, a lot of things happen, there’s a lot of situations that come up. We are good, indifferent, and when you see all those interactions, it just builds your skillset. It, it builds that knowledge bank. You’ve been there, you know how to handle it. It’s not as scary the next time it happens.

[00:17:26] Jeremy Wood: Yeah. That’s, that’s so true. The more practice you get, the more comfortable and confident you get. Well, talk to us about how you got into, to teaching, into this sort of phase that you, you’re in currently.

[00:17:41] How I came to the class or talk about the class itself?

[00:17:45] Jeremy Wood: Just how you got into your.

[00:17:46] Steve Kozak: I can, I can get my…

[00:17:47] Jeremy Wood: Yeah. How you got into your teaching career?

[00:17:50] Steve Kozak: So, I think when I, actually had started with the exec, uh, when I was running the Greater Baltimore Technology Council as part of that, my, previous boss, Penny, had suggested that I get some executive coaching. And, you know, I’m a critic and a cynic, and I’m like, “Well, whatever.

[00:18:06] You know, what, what do I need coaching for? You know, whatever challenges I have, I’ll figure them out.” And I will tell you, it changed my life, right? That changed me a, made me a better husband, a better father and it made me a better leader. And so, one of those things that I worked on with my executive coach, what came out of it was, you know, I might like to teach, might, like, enjoy being in the classroom.

[00:18:28] And so, I gave it a go that first semester, back at Towson University, and I was teaching services marketing, and I, I loved it. Eventually, I was asked to teach their senior core. Actually, I taught, ended up teaching full-time at University of Baltimore, full-time. I was teaching entrepreneurship and management, marketing, sales.

[00:18:47] I did that for two years. I loved that. The opportunity that just, the opportunity changed, so I, I went back to Towson and went back to kind of full-time world of, and teaching as an adjunct, but I loved it. Right? I loved the classroom. I realized that it really spoke to me. There’s an interesting book of you,

[00:19:06] either of you have read it, called ” Now Discover Your Hidden Strengths.” Now, it’s really good. Actually, it’s cr, it’s the best leadership, one of the best leadership books I’ve ever read and it, I can apply it. So, I’ve done the Myers-Briggs, I don’t know what that means. You know, on these four letters, I don’t know what your four letters mean and so forth, but the Now Discover Your Hidden strengths is really, I can apply it.

[00:19:27] And what it does is similar, like, the Myers-Briggs, you’ve taken the test online, but it comes back with, “These are your five strengths.” And when I read mine, I was like, “Yes, this sit, it sung to me. Like, it spoke to who I was.” And so, when I did that and, and, and as a leader, it also helped me because then I was able to, it tells, “You if you have a person who is these things, here’s what they like.”

[00:19:51] And so, I could print out their sheets and say, “Okay, now Jeremy, you are these five. In each of those sheets, give circle one or two things that when you read that, you’re like, ‘Yes, that is me.'” So, it helped me, it helped me understand them, but it also helped me, on the back of the book, it says, “As a leader, if you’ve got a person who is strategic or who’s a learner, or who these things are, here’s how you,

[00:20:12] here’s how you lead them.” And it get, and again, I had them, you know, circle the one or two that really bullet points its sung, and it helped me then as a leader, identify what their strengths were and let them play. What I love about the book at a high level is a lot of early in when I was in corporate, corporate was about making you better in the areas that you were weak.

[00:20:30] And so, if you were a really good runner but not a good swimmer, they would say, “We’re gonna throw you in the pool and make you a better swimmer. And the runner’s like, “I don’t wanna be a swimmer. I love running. Please let me run. I’m never gonna be a good swimmer.” The book says, “That’s true. You’re not gonna be a good swimmer.”

[00:20:43] So, give ’em the best shoes, give ’em the best training running coach, and let ’em become a great, they’re gonna become a great runner if you dedicate that, and that’s what this book is about. So, I, that book, I don’t know where I was going. What was your question? So, so my leadership, oh, Towson, so one of the couple of things that came out of that was when I did this was that I am Woo as one of my skill sets,

[00:21:02] so I like meeting people and engaging them and getting them to like me, which might find hard to believe I am absolutely that. I am strategic, I am learner, I’m creative at responsibility, and so for them, tie in really nicely to the teaching. So, you know, one of the things I love about marketing is the creativeness of it, right?

[00:21:21] Is being able to come up with something creative. And so, in this, in this case, I have content that I have to bring to the classroom, and how do I deliver it in such a way? It’s, as I think of it as a performance, each class is, like, a performance that I’m putting on, so that composes that my learner is learning for the class.

[00:21:38] So, while I’ve got content, how do I make it applicable, interesting, and relevant to what the students that I’m teaching today are thinking about and in tune with? So, there’s that piece. There’s the Woo factor, which is, I get a chance to come and be Steve on the center of attention, which I kind of also sometimes like, and there’s probably something else,

[00:21:56] I’m missing one. But it really applies, like, it brings a lot of things together for me. So, I went through the exercise of maybe do I wanna do full, full-time Ph.D., you know, having kids who were about to go into high school, college, that was not a possible go. So, I just kept teaching, and then at some point, um, as our kids are older now, we realize, my wife and I, it’s like, “You know, we have a great relationship.

[00:22:20] We’re this window where we can do something interesting, and do we want to do something interesting with the next X years?” What does that look like to kind of, not jumpstart but change our processes? The, by the way, we do things, and it really happened on a trip to Amsterdam. We did a bike barge trip, and we’d get into some town, Dedrick, how to, you know, name it Gent

[00:22:39] and people would be like, “Oh, I could live there. I could live there. Oh my God, I could live there.” And the next day I’d get up, next, pedal next door, be like, “So why don’t you do that?” And they’re like, “Oh, it’s complicated. I’m like, we got 30 miles to go today. Let’s talk.” And so, we would talk, and I found out it wasn’t that complicated just about doing it.

[00:22:56] And so, we talked about doing that, moving to Europe. The wife who has her own graphic design business, said, “It’s gonna be hard. What do I do with my clients?” Then COVID happened, and she found out within, you know, a year and a half or plus that she didn’t lose clients. If anything, she gained clients, and it’s a business she’s had for 20 years.

[00:23:13] So, we kind of put two and two together, and I said, “You know, what if we, you know, looked at other places around, other opportunities and, you know, jumps,” you know, kind of, again, I don’t wanna say jumpstart ’cause it sounds like it’s not good, but it’s like, “Why don’t we change for the processes by which we live?”

[00:23:28] And so, I interviewed over at Arizona, Michigan and JMU. I put my stuff out there, got calls from three to five kind of immediately. And when I got to JMU, drove to Michigan, drove, you know, interviewed there. It was colder. It was colder in February. JMU, I got here in May, late February. It was beautiful.

[00:23:46] And the campus was great. I was like, “I love it. And I got the offer and so here I am.” And it’s, it’s been unbelievable. You know? I, I talk to friends. The word I use is grateful. I am so grateful to be here.

[00:23:58] So I, I want to ask about your, your approach to, to your JMU class, but hearing that your wife owns a graphic design business, it makes a lot of sense how passionate the two you were about your, your Halloween decor approach to, to trick-or-treaters, now, now that I’m hearing this.

[00:24:15] Steve Kozak: Yeah.

[00:24:17] Kristen Wisdorf: Wait, we have to know what this is about, Jeremy.

[00:24:20] Steve Kozak: Yeah, so somewhere in there, you know, you have kids, and you don’t realize that Halloween is actually for adults. I’ll just throw that out there. Particularly if you walk around, just, you know, in our neighborhood, you would take a cup with you and the first one, when I went around with some friends, I came back, and my wife asked me if I had

[00:24:36] had a couple drinks and, so it’s a great holiday, but it’s also a great holiday because it’s, you have permission to scare, I would say, 9 to 10-year-olds to about 13 to 14-year-olds that believe that they are brave and they won’t be scared. And then, as they’re screaming down the, you know, down the sidewalk,

[00:24:55] Steve Kozak: you realize it’s great. So, yeah, it’s all, again, putting on a performance. So, I, we would, and we were also in a neighborhood weirdly in Towson that it’s a great, it’s a row homes, and it’s, we would get a lot of kids and then as we started decorating more and more word spread and we would get more and more.

[00:25:13] So, last year, we did it for the last time ’cause we were moving down here full-time. But we get, we got about, I can tell you we hand out over 620 pieces of candy every year, one per person. So, we get probably about, we get probably about, you know, at least 600 trick-or-treaters every year in our thing and it’s usually a line down to the sidewalk.

[00:25:32] And the various, you know, we played the roles of a person in the coffin, the clown with the red balloon or the scarecrow on the cross, which, you know, we put the stuff up there we can advance, so people driving by, they look like there’s a scarecrow. It’s fake, right? It’s been there all week long. And then that night I show up live and, you know, I fine-tuned my ability to literally scare the bejesus out of, that’s, that, that target segment, you know, under 9, we leave alone, but around 9, 10 to about 13, 14, 15.

[00:26:02] It is, I’ve laughed. I have, I laugh myself out. My jaw hurts at the end of the evening. It’s that great.

[00:26:10] Jeremy Wood: That’s, that’s just an awesome, awesome lost, lost art, I, I think.

[00:26:15] Steve Kozak: Yeah.

[00:26:18] Jeremy Wood: So, I, one of the things that I really liked is when we were in your classroom this past semester, you talked about, you know, your approach to how you want your students to, to learn and to practice selling is a little bit different than what you’ve historically seen.

[00:26:32] Could you talk to us about kind of your approach to, to the role-plays and how you want them practicing?

[00:26:39] Steve Kozak: Yeah, I think so. Coming in the first sales class here, when I got here, actually, it was, uh, Richard Tate, who runs our professional sales center, and actually the prior faculty member, uh, Steve Hertzenberg, who said, “We really need to differentiate between the first class, which is marketing 430, you know, and 466.”

[00:26:59] And so I spoke to a lot of people. I took some time reflected over the summer, and I said, “Okay, I’m gonna, you know, kind of blow this up, hopefully, you know, either it’s gonna go really well or I’m gonna get fired. And so, you know, in the, in the normal role-play class, they learn a lot about sales, and they do typically two role-plays.

[00:27:17] It’s great. We have great facilities here, so students will go into, when they do the role-plays, they’ll schedule time, they’ll go into a room, meet with a buyer like yourself, Jeremy, or someone else, and they have 15 minutes to do their role-play. There’s, typically they’re closing. That’s the part of the role-play, is to have a certain close.

[00:27:34] There’s a scenario that they’re given and based upon, and there’s a rubric that they’re given as well, they follow certain things for grading, and then based upon whatever sale they get, whether they sell the A package, the B package or C package, the pencil and maybe a better grade, uh, when they get feedback. Typically, the professor can go back in after the fact and give them some feedback

[00:27:54] live in their video that they’re supposed to watch, but my gut said, “Maybe the students weren’t watching their whole video again.” And that’s basically maybe, maybe there was 30 seconds of some feedback from the buyer ’cause you had another student who was coming in right after that. And so, I just took a, thought about that model and said it was actually a little bit like,

[00:28:10] I’m a marketing person, so “Blue Ocean Strategy.” If you’ve read the book, another great book about, you know, finding Your Blue Ocean. And one of the stories that talks in there is about, like, Cirque du Solei that really looked at the model, which was a circus and said, “We’re gonna change every aspect of it.”

[00:28:24] And then, so that’s what I did. I changed every aspect of that. So, instead of, you know, two role-plays I had last semester I had four, so we’re gonna double that. But better still, instead of having, you know, where they didn’t really get a chance to see anybody else’s role-plays in class, you’re gonna sit in the classroom, the role-plays are gonna be done in the classroom

[00:28:45] and like this semester with 1815 students, they’re gonna see 40 to 48 role-plays. So, again, that’s that repetition thing that I talked about earlier. So, they’re gonna perform they’re, you know, three, they’re three this semester, I cut back one, but they’re gonna do their three role-plays, but they’re also gonna see their peers do role-plays as well.

[00:29:05] And in that repetition, they’re, they’re gonna see a lot of things. Things that are working well, things that could be better, and as I call it, they’re gonna find their swim stroke, right? By going through that, they’re gonna say, “Oh, I like that. I like that,” you know, so that’s what I’m really focused on, so there’s a repetition there, getting of that bat’s, kind of like the clothes, as I mentioned with Brittanica gave me a lot of experience.

[00:29:25] But on top of that, they’re gonna get feedback. So, not only from me, but they’re also gonna get from their peers ’cause their peers are assigned another sales team, so they stay with the one product through the whole semester. There is no close the first role-play or the second role-play. It’s not until the third role-play.

[00:29:41] Steve Kozak: So, it’s again, mimicking the real world that you’re not closing anybody in 15 minutes, but it’s gonna be over a series of weeks. You’re gonna get to learn about them, know them, you’re gonna identify their problems, get, ask clarifying questions around those things, we take ’em through the spin model. And, and then at the last role-play, they’re gonna handle some objections and try to close.

[00:29:59] So, that’s different. But by having your peers act as your sales manager, so when they’ve done the role-play and all three students down in the room, you’ve got 30 minutes. Typically, I turn over to sales, sales managers, which are other students, to ask them questions and to, so again, my goal there is to move them from

[00:30:17] passive listening where they are, you know, “Oh, I saw Jeremy, or I saw Kristen do her role-play, and, you know, you know, oh, she made a mistake there. She said, ‘Ah’ a couple times” to more, again, instead of passive listening, it’s engaged learning. So, by knowing that you’re gonna have to give feedback to your peers and you’re being graded on that, it amps up your, you know, amps it up a little bit.

[00:30:39] Steve Kozak: Right? And so, and I’m trying to move them from, “Oh, you did good,” which some of the feedback is, and giving, you know, having 20 notes of feedback to, I want to get them by the end of the semester so they’re saying, “You know, Kristen, in that moment, in that role-play, do you remember you, you were asking about X? Do you remember the question that you asked?

[00:30:59] Okay, let me, you asked this. What were you hoping to get from that question? Why did you ask that question? Okay. What else could you have asked instead of that question? Do you recall what the buyer said or did in that moment? What else could you have asked? Why do you think the buyer did that?” So, again, it’s like I caught this matrix moment when they’re in the hot seat and they’re doing their role-play,

[00:31:20] they don’t even, as soon as they sit in the chair if you were to ask them a question about what just happened, they’re like, “Nope, no clue.” but by sitting there and having that, you know, kind of being the sales manager, it forces them to kind of, it slows down for them and they get to see things and they, it allows them to see those core moments that, to read the room a little bit and it makes them better in their role-plays.

[00:31:45] And so, and so that’s the first part. So, I turn over the coaches, but then I turn over to those students, you know, “What else did you see?” And there’s points for that as well. So again, it really creates an environment where we’re, we’re watching Jeremy and Kristen do the role-play, but we’re really, we’re looking for those one or two moments, and I call it, it’s, we’re exploring opening these doors as you’re walking down the hallway.

[00:32:06] You know, sometimes in a role-play where you’re a set amount of time, and you’re trying to hit certain rubrics, you open the door, you and you go down the hallway, the next door, next door, next door. And in the real world, you explore that room a little bit, I call it, you know? Open that door and, and based upon their response, you might say, “You know, I noticed you hesitated there for a moment.

[00:32:23] What were you thinking? Say more about that.” And you explore that a little bit with your question as you can find things maybe that were, that weren’t so obvious when you first asked your question. So, I want them to get to that point. So, it makes the students better, but then they’re getting real feedback, right?

[00:32:37] So, they’re getting real feedback from the buyer as well. People like yourself and your team, who are then, you know, saying things that they did, that they couldn’t do better, and again, these are real people who are out there, not just the professor. And then, of course, I get the chance to give my feedback.

[00:32:52] So, I think those are real positive things. So, they get the, the coaching in the class. There is no rubric, which I will tell you, early in the semester makes most of the students nuts ’cause they’re like, “Well whoa, whoa. How are you grading it?” I’m like, “I will know it when I see it, and you’ll know it when you see it.”

[00:33:06] Kristen Wisdorf: I love that ’cause their whole life has been a rubric, a scorecard. A, did you get an A, a B, a C? Right? And it’s a little bit more realistic, quite frankly, to what they’ll experience After they graduate and when they’re in the real world. Sure, if they’re in sales, there will be, “Did you hit your goal or did you not?

[00:33:25] You know, what percentage were you at?” But I think the value is in the practice, right? The role-play and more importantly, in the debrief and the coaching after.

[00:34:36] Steve Kozak: Yep. And, you know, even in the last role-play world, they blew the close. I tell my buyers, you know, “Do not feel compelled to sign the contract.” In fact, and I tell students, “You’re not getting graded based upon whether you’ve got a contract or not.” And they all get so, you know, like, “Look, I got the contract.”

[00:34:51] But it’s really about how you handle the objections ’cause that’s gonna be 90% of what happens to you when you’re in those environments, you’re gonna get objections. So, how do you handle that? And again, by sitting there and seeing, you know, 17 other people potentially go through that, I’m gonna see 17 different objections and 17 different ways that they handled it, and it’s gonna make me better through that environment.

[00:35:11] Steve Kozak: So, that’s for the students. The other thing that I like too, for you guys, for, you know, folks like memoryBlue who come in, who we’re super, super grateful for both, for the response support of the sales center, but also for taking the time outta your schedules, is it creates a better environment for you guys to identify students, right?

[00:35:27] So, instead of just getting them in the room for, you know, you get, in the day that you’re on campus, 3 students for about 15 minutes and, you know, did they do these checkbox things? You’re seeing them over a period of 15 weeks or whatever number of weeks that you’re gonna be in there, but you’re seeing both your sales team, you’re also seeing the other students who act as a sales team and other students who are asking questions and how they’re acting.

[00:35:49] And I think it was, you know someone last semester, and it may have been you, Jeremy, we were talking about students, and I think there’s something to be said for when they’re done the, even when they’re done the role-play, and I noticed it, you know, how do they act after that moment? Do they get back to their seat?

[00:36:07] “Oh, you know, I’m done. I’m disengaged, I’m done.” Or do they go back to their seat, flip open their computer, or are they engaged? And I had one of my buyers last semester, you know, when we were talking, they were like, you know, “We like these people. We don’t want this person because they disengage.” And I’m like, “It’s funny you noticed that. I do as well.”

[00:36:26] And so, we, one of the sessions, we talked about that, you know, that you’re being watched, you know? It’s like kind of, you know, it’s the do the other little things. Once you get outta the real world, there’s no grades, right? There’s no report crisis, there’s no grades. And it’s, but it is those little other things that are not graded that make the world a difference,

[00:36:42] whether you get the advancement, the promotions, and all those other things, or get laid off. And one of those little things is when you’re done, you’re, you’re gonna be doing role-plays if you’re in sales and are you engaged in the process when you’re done or are you now sitting back, and you’re done and, “I’m done, and I don’t have to pay attention anymore.”

[00:36:57] ‘Cause I’ll tell you what, your boss is watching and so are your other, your team and they’re watching you, and you’re being graded even though there’s no grade, so stay engaged in the process. So, for all those things, I think it creates a really, it’s, you know, I wasn’t sure early in the semester if we, it was a go,

[00:37:13] but by the end of the semester, I knew it was happening. Like, I could feel it. And, and the last class we had was pretty special. We talked about lessons learned, you know, in their takeaways, and, you know, they shared some really great stuff, and I was like, “Ah, it hit, you know? Like, I know that they, I know it worked.”

[00:37:31] Jeremy Wood: Well, being in the classroom too, I, I could definitely tell that the, the engagement was, was so much more I, I think, exciting because they were, the students were not only able to, to say, “Hey, you, you did good.” But they were able to, to ask questions and point out areas that they maybe saw as an opportunity for improvement

[00:37:53] and that mirrors a lot of the, the real world. A lot of our sales teams, they learn the best when they listen to each other’s calls and, and give each other feedback. And you, you usually learn more when you’re, you’re teaching sometimes or giving feedback to a peer than you do just doing and trying to learn on your own.

[00:38:14] So, I think it helps them, you know, hear other people’s perspectives to, to challenge how they may think too.

[00:38:21] Steve Kozak: Yeah, it’s interesting to say that, you know? The first, I set role-plays last semester, there was, one of the students who was a sales manager for the very first role-play, the very first day, and I could tell by her question that, that she was asking, I was just like, “Whoa, my, you know, I just, she’s doing advanced calculus, and everyone else is still, still doing, you know, a different level.

[00:38:45] They’re still doing geometry.” And it, it was like, you know, I literally paused. I was like, “Wow, that is, that is such a great question.” Like, I don’t even know if everyone else knows what just happened there, but that was unbelievable, and I knew that she was special in that regard. And so, of course we get to the first role-play, and she absolutely gives the absolute worst role-play, that first one, and so bad

[00:39:10] that it, you know, you’re, you’re, as I’m watching, sitting there, I was like, “It’s going, it’s going sideways.” I can feel it. She’s peddling in quicksand. And either we’re, it could be an emotional moment at the end, or she could run to a trashcan, right? It’s gonna be one of the two. But when she got back to her seat, there was, you know, a couple wipes away

[00:39:29] Steve Kozak: and so we talked a little bit about that and what happened, and da, da da da. And, you know, and I shared with her, “You’re, you’re gonna be great. Like, you’re great. You’re, you’re so far above everybody in this class right now. I know it, even though I’m not gonna give you a great grade, but you’re not gonna fail,

[00:39:44] but, you know, you’re, you’re just continuing.” And what I realized also, it allowed me to over that repetition of seeing people, sometimes you see things, right? So, as a leader, I think one of the things that I learned is, particularly in hiring people or just as a leader, the collective wisdom of your team goes a long way, right?

[00:40:03] So, you are, you see something, a perspective, but then when your teammates says something, you’re like, “Wow, that is right. Like, that is great.” I never, I never saw that. And that happened in the classroom for me. And so, it helped me in my head, the more I saw them perform the role-play, the more I saw them ask questions, the more I saw the keen, the students fellow, their teammates give feedback to one another,

[00:40:26] that I started realizing where they were, right? And what those significant little elements were that could move them forward and, and in her case, it was really a, “Stop thinking,” right? She was so good. She was overthinking in those moments. And it was almost the thinking of hitting rubrics and doing certain things versus just swimming.

[00:40:45] Steve Kozak: Like, you swim faster than everyone. Just swim. Don’t worry about, you know, your stroke, your elbows back, your, just swim. You know how to swim. And, uh, so we had the competition here against Virginia Tech, and she didn’t, wasn’t gonna sign up ’cause still she wasn’t, like, sure it was worth her time and effort

[00:41:04] and then there was an opening 24 hours before the competition. She was, and even class that day, she was like, “All right, I signed up. I know, I don’t know why I signed up, but I was, I signed up.” I’m like, “Whatever.” And then in the competition, they put the students, I think there’s 24 in one of kind of 6 to a kind of willow room.

[00:41:21] And those students have to win that room if you will. And those, all that room is judged by the same judges, et cetera. And when I looked at her room, I knew that she was in a room with the previous champion, who was crazy from Virginia Tech and when she won, she was a freshman the previous year. A freshman won this competition.

[00:41:41] Like, I was like, “Wow.” And, and then I thought, “Uhoh, the student, my student, Kenya is not, she’s got a work cut out for her and it’s gonna be tough.” And then the scores came in and she won her room. Like, it was like, “Wow.” Like, you know? And then she won the competition. So, the student, you know, the student who in last semester had the worst role-play, who had, you know, uh, a moment afterwards

[00:42:06] learned so much by that moment and really found her swim stroke, and to the point that she won the competition, and the judges said it wasn’t, it wasn’t close. She was outstanding. So, that was great.

[00:42:18] Kristen Wisdorf: I mean, this is, like, the beauty of sales programs in colleges, and it’s just incredible that you know, you kind of got lucky in a sense that your family, your parents were in sales or sales-adjacent roles, and you had a roommate who brought you to a marketing class to find your way into sales, but I, it’s just so awesome that colleges are

[00:42:40] kind of uncovering for students what sales really is, what professional selling is earlier in people’s lives because this is probably something had the class not existed and your role-play not existed and the competition, like, who knows if she would’ve found her, where I’m sure she would’ve, but how long it would take her to find her way to sales.

[00:43:00] And so, it’s really exciting, you know, speaking, I, I went to a college with a sales program, but it’s just awesome how they’ve just boomed across the country, and you’re, there’s people who are kind of made for it, right? Like, it just, naturally they’ve got what it takes to be really good, and you’re opening up a new career, new opportunities for them earlier, which is great.

[00:43:22] Steve Kozak: Yeah. And I would say, you know, the, the big misconception is, you know, we all have a, like, as a preconceived view of what salespeople are and who they are. And as I said in my marketing class and even the sales class, you know, we, in sales, when we meet those people being on the buyer side, we hate those people, right?

[00:43:39] Who, that preconceived notion, they’re aggressive, they’re this, they’re, you know, all those things. Like, we don’t like those people as buyers. It’s actually the person who cares most about people who really, genuinely wants to help people out in a meaningful way is not the talker, likes to ask the questions and, and help them solve their problems and, and do so in a meaningful way,

[00:44:00] those people are the best salespeople. And, you know, you do, it’s funny, the role-play is the, it even, it evens everything out, so there’s a lot of bravado when people are at the beginning of the class, you know, and.

[00:44:12] Kristen Wisdorf: It’s like the airport. It’s the great equalizer.

[00:44:15] Steve Kozak: Yeah, yeah. They believe that they’re gonna be, and then the role-play happens, and then you see, and then you quickly realize, who, who is gonna do well.

[00:44:24] Like, I may see it, the other students see it too. It happens very quickly, so it’s great. It’s great.

[00:44:30] Kristen Wisdorf: Well, it’s also, you know, I think it’s, it’s humbling in a good way for the folks who have a lot of confidence, and then maybe the role-play doesn’t go the way they expect because better to have that happen in your class than, you know, walking into your first job and you get beat down because it doesn’t go the way you expect and you kinda rethink all your life choices.

[00:44:49] So, it’s a great kind of environment to practice and learn and get as close to the real thing as possible before they graduate.

[00:44:59] Steve Kozak: Yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting. The, talking your way through it, one of the changes I made this semester is really require them to do a lot of product knowledge before they start the role-plays. Last semester I encouraged it, silly me, I didn’t make an assignment, so they didn’t do it. And it became apparent they didn’t have the necessary product knowledge.

[00:45:16] This semester, I changed that. But even when they did their first kind of role-play, if you will, which was a 5-minute “Tell me 2 stories about how you helped clients solve problems,” there were still some that were reverting to that, you know, the previous sales class mentality of features, advantages, benefits and just rattling off things that they felt were important

[00:45:34] and, you know, they as if they could just talk their way through it. They’re a good talker, so they can just talk. And so, we shared commentary about that and discuss that a little bit, and so I think that was the first realization that for the talkers who think they can just talk their way through it, they’re gonna, you know, they have to deconstruct what they believe

[00:45:51] Steve Kozak: and there’s a new path. And we’re gonna get there. We’ll get there, but we’re, and we’ll start the role-plays coming up soon. At fact, tomorrow we start our first round of role-plays, so, uh, we’ll be doing this. You know, the thing about the class, I’ve got 28 classes with the students. 18 of them are gonna be role-plays,

[00:46:09] so it’s really 18 of the 28 classes are role-play. So, we’re, you know, and if you think about the 3 others, the 2 that were for product knowledge, the, and then the 2 that are prepping them. It’s really 23 of the 28 classes are dedicated to role-plays, so we’re heavy into discussing role-plays. I have very little lecture.

[00:46:27] A lot of learning’s gonna happen in those moments when they sit in that hot seat and it, we, you know, turn the lights on, so to speak. It’s great.

[00:46:34] Kristen Wisdorf: Totally. Well, that’s the way you get better. So, very, very experiential class in what you’re doing there, which is exciting. And we’re really excited and happy that you’ve allowed us to be part of it too, so.

[00:46:44] Steve Kozak: Yep. You guys are great. The only thing I would say to all my buyers, you know, be a little harder. Right? The, you know, don’t be, some of the feedback is they’re going, I’m like, “What? Come on. Like, you know?” But.

[00:46:57] Kristen Wisdorf: Turn up the heat. Okay. We’ve heard you loud and clear.

[00:47:00] Steve Kozak: You gotta find your, your voice too ’cause you’re coming in the first time, and it’s like, but I do think everyone that came through, eventually you become more comfortable with the students and the environment and you can do those things and you can give more, more of that pointed feedback that they really need to hear.

[00:47:15] They need to hear it.

[00:47:17] Kristen Wisdorf: Totally. Okay. Well, we are gonna pivot to what we could call just fast questions. So, honestly, just answer the very first thing that comes to your mind. Don’t overthink it. And, you know, you mentioned a book earlier, but I’m curious, if someone were to, you know, meet you in a coffee shop and say, “Hey, I’m interested in potentially getting into a career in sales” um, what book or kinda resource would you recommend to them as a starting point?

[00:47:47] Steve Kozak: Wow. For sale specifically? Oof. I would say, you know, the “SPIN” book is pretty good. I like “The Challenger Sale” as well. I think those are both really good books to kind of change your thinking about what sales is.

[00:48:03] Kristen Wisdorf: Totally. Okay. If you could have a billboard anywhere in the world, where would it be, and what would it say?

[00:48:14] Steve Kozak: Wow. Uh, mm mm mm. The first thing that came to mind is “Do good things” and,

[00:48:24] or it’d probably be, like, we were talking about kids or us, I’d say “Hug your kids every day.” And it would be in some big city that just was a soft reminder that you should hug your kids every day. So, Jeremy, hug your kids every day.

[00:48:38] Kristen Wisdorf: Jeremy’s about to have one. First kid.

[00:48:41] Jeremy Wood: I will, I will keep that in mind and I will, I will certainly take advantage of that advice. What, who would you say is the biggest inspiration in your life?

[00:49:00] Steve Kozak: That’s a good question. Again. Wow. You know, I don’t know if I think about that. I had to say my parents, I mean, you know, my parents were a big part of it, right? I mean, you know, dad was a car salesman. Mom, you know, she was in sales in an auto world, and she dealt with a lot of stuff, right, in a man’s world.

[00:49:17] And I know she dealt with stuff. I could feel it then, and I could, I know it now. And both of those things, you know, you work hard, you quit in the time. My dad worked a lot of weekends. He worked a lot of nights. He missed a lot of baseball games, a lot of soccer games, so I think that really built the foundation of hard work

[00:49:36] and, and it also brought me to where I am today, where I, you know, as a leader, you know, thinking about, you know, being aware of, you know, opportunities and, and being a better leader because I know some of the stuff that my mother went through and faced and, and just, I’m more aware of those things.

[00:49:54] And it also affected my marriage. I mean, my wife, my mom, you know, was a working mom and, um, you know, in many ways, sometimes she was the breadwinner at some points, different years. And so, um, I’m, grew up with a strong mom, a woman in my life, and, you know, and I did not shy away from that. I embrace it, and my wife is a strong, a strong-personality person. She has to be to live with me for all these years. So, yeah, those, I would say those three things.

[00:50:22] Kristen Wisdorf: You know, it’s kind of been a theme throughout our conversation today that people in your life, right, you just walk through your parents and your wife, but people, in general, have really kind of like, influenced your path. I, I couldn’t help but notice that I think you had two roommates who influenced you.

[00:50:38] One brought you to a marketing class, and one introduced you to Britannica. And then you also mentioned, I think it was a manager who suggested the executive coaching, if I recall or colleague. Like, it’s really kind of true that the people you surround yourself with and who our support systems can really influence your path and your career and your life.

[00:50:58] Steve Kozak: Yep. Yes. It’s funny you say that. So, I talk about that in one of my classes. Probably in the sales class. We have a kind of an off-class where I discuss resumes, interviewing skills, and some life skills. And one of them I talk about mentors. And, you know, we think of mentors as they come calling with a sign that says, “I’m gonna be your mentor.”

[00:51:20] And it’s really not. It’s just, it’s being in those moments, being able to listen and hear there are gonna be certain people in your life that you’re gonna come across, who when you talk, and they give you feedback, they give you more than the cursory, you know, they don’t ask just, “So how are you doing?” And you can get away with the answer, “I’m good.”

[00:51:36] They, they ask you, “No, no, no. How are you? How are you really doing? Like, what’s going on?” And those people are the ones who care. They’re not saying it, but they care about you. You gotta be in those moments. There’s points to be aware, to listen, to read the room and to know. And those are the people, and those people, you know, surround yourself with those people, those risers, you know, remove the sinkers and you know, take ’em out for lunch, coffee every now and then

[00:52:00] and because they will improve your life space in meaningful ways that you do not even, cannot even imagine. Those people, I’ve got them, I’m blessed to have those people in my life that I tap into when I, one lives across the street from me, and every time I go, I’m in here, my wife’s in Baltimore still, before we make the final switch and

[00:52:17] every time I’m home, if I see ’em, I walk over there, we just spend 20 minutes talking. But I walk away with nuggets of things and I’m like, “Yeah. Right.” And it’s, yeah.

[00:52:27] Jeremy Wood: That’s, that’s great. What would you say is something that you think you’re world-class at?

[00:52:38] Steve Kozak: Hmm. What a really good question. Wow.

[00:52:46] Ha, that’s not golf. I wish it was. You know, um, I think my hobby. I don’t know if I’m world-class, but I really enjoyed cooking. I love cooking. And I’ve done it enough. I think also, again, it goes back to I grew up in a household. Both parents worked, mom, you know, worked, and many nights, she got home late.

[00:53:05] And I remember when I first met my wife, they’re sitting with her parents, and she’s like, I was, like, talking about some dishes. I’m like, “Wow, this is really good.” She’s like, “I’m sure your mom’s got dishes.” I’m like, “No.” She was like, “No, no, she does.” I’m like, “No. We, we ate at my grandparents twice a week, and then the other night was this, and usually, Wednesdays was, you know, this, we would eat, carry out and then Fridays we go to mother grandmother’s.”

[00:53:28] I’m like, “No, I, my mom, I mean, she was working 50 hours a week, and she was coming home and.” So, but then also, in middle school, I started preparing them meals. And so, you know, putting the stuff together and, you know, from, just take it out of the fridge and put it in the oven at this temperature, which, you know, screwed that up, to making the hamburgers, screwed that up a couple times,

[00:53:47] you know? Putting rum extract and hamburger meat. You would think like putting wine in something is good, but rum extract and hamburger meat is not good. It does not taste good. So, doing that enough and then, but it made me a better cook, so I really enjoy cooking. Because it also, when you do that, and I like cooking things that are meaningful, like gathering people,

[00:54:09] so when you cook something, it’s special and you invite pe, I love hosting, so when you bring people over and you’re enjoying the meal, you know, it’s also, you’re talking, you’re getting to know them, you’re spending time together in meaningful ways, having those meaningful conversations with each other about not just,

[00:54:25] you know, “So how’s everything going?” “Oh, great.” It’s, you know, “How’s everything going? So, tell me about the, you know, what are you working on? Or how are the kids?” Or, you know, “This has been a challenge.” “I know.” “How’s that? How are you dealing with that?” That’s a lot, you know? So, it creates better, meaningful, deeper conversations, and I love that.

[00:54:44] I love that.

[00:54:45] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s a great answer and one we have not heard before. I like it. Well, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story with us. And, of course, thank you for including us at JMU. We love going to your class and certainly love your students as well. So, Steve, we appreciate your time on the podcast.

[00:55:03] You’re a certified hustler.

[00:55:06] Steve Kozak: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate the time and all for that you guys do in supporting JMU, and personally, me and my class, it’s really wonderful and for the opportunity. Thank you again.

Tech Sales is for Hustlers Podcast