Campus Series: Marty Holmes – The Sales Education Foundation 

Guest-At-A-Glance

💡 Name: Marty Holmes

💡 What she does: Marty is the executive director of SEF.

💡 Company: SEF

💡 Noteworthy: Marty Holmes has been in about four different industries, all related to sales. She learned about SEF accidentally, liked what people were doing there, and got a job. She held the position of an assistant director until 2021 when she became the executive director at SEF.

💡 Where to find Marty: LinkedIn | Website

Key Insights

⚡ Is selling an art or a science? Sales brings together professionals from all walks of life and various educational backgrounds. Some never graduated from high school while others have degrees. Because of the different backgrounds that people come from, the question is whether sales is an art or a science? Marty thinks it is both. “The science of sales means that it’s a teachable process. Art is the part that the individual puts into it — their own uniqueness, their way of communicating, and their way of taking the information that they have from their company, their product, or their service and putting it into their own words — the art of communication. That’s important, and of course, we do teach communication in many universities.”

⚡ Sales is for everybody. Since there are different types of people in sales, it is evident that it is not a job for only a specific type of person. Further, education is not crucial for a successful career in sales. Marty explains that there are many different jobs in sales and that anyone can do sales. “There are ways to get yourself out there and be an extrovert. And then, there are ways to respond, which introverts love. And it’s being a colleague; it’s being an advisor; it’s being a consultant. It absolutely is. And if you’re curious, and you like to get excited about things, if you have passion, chances are you’re gonna be really good at certain types of sales because they’re all not the same.”

⚡ Sales education is still evolving. Although there were universities in 2007 which offered specific sales education in the form of courses and programs, there were not as many sales majors as there are now. And now, there are more of them, thanks to the SEF. The SEF is a small non-profit foundation with a mission to elevate the sales profession through university education. According to Marty, its biggest challenge is getting recognition. “Getting folks to recognize that we exist is probably our number one challenge, just because we’re a small non-profit. We have a big footprint in a very small space. Sales education is a very small space; it’s growing, and we know it’s gonna continue to grow because the evidence is there. The companies are getting involved, the educators are excited, and more students are recognizing it.”

Episode Highlights

The Sales Education Foundation

“The founders of SEF, Howard and Sally Stevens, wanted to elevate sales to a degree at university, and at the time they started, back in 2007, they knew a few folks who were teaching some sales courses — and this was in the state of Ohio. And they got a group together and said, ‘What can we do to get more professors, more colleges of business to understand that sales is a viable, rewarding career that deserves to have a body of knowledge taught at university?’ So they decided, ‘Okay, one thing we can do is that we can help universities that are teaching sales to promote themselves.’ That’s where the SEF Annual took off originally in 2007 — ‘We can create a survey, and we can send it out to universities. Let’s find out who is teaching sales and what they are teaching.’ So that became the pivotal moment with the creation of the magazine. […]

What can we do? We could offer some research grants to doctoral students interested in studying sales. We need PhDs with a focus or a major in sales. We need those to help the universities build their programs because of the requirement that they must have a Ph.D. on staff as part of the program. So, we can start a research grant program. And we did that with the help of Neil Rackham. […]

So what else can we do? Well, we can help the universities to meet with each other. Now, how do we do that? It was a really hard decision, but during those talks, we were presented with an idea from some folks at Florida State University and Rollins college who said, ‘We are going to start a sales educators’ academy.’ And we said, ‘Can we sponsor? That’s exactly what we’ve been wanting to figure out how to do.’ So we’ve been a sponsor of that every year.”

SEF’s Magazine

“We don’t write any of the articles ourselves. We seek out individuals who are interested in our theme topic for that year, and we invite them if they’re interested to write for us. So practically everything you read in the Annual comes from a guest author. We develop a theme typically in the fall of the previous year. What are our ideas? In 2022, our theme was professional sales around the world or around the globe. And one of our board members, who’s an academic at the University of Toledo, said, ‘I’ve got a great idea. Let’s do this article about a sales education journey around the globe.’ And it turned out very well because she has connections all over the world; she got people to contribute different snippets of what’s going on, who has a program, and where sales is not really recognized as a university degree. […]

And of course, most people jump at the chance to write because it gives them the exposure and the subject matter that they’re writing about — whether it be a competition or a pet project. So they jumped at the chance that that made a really interesting global piece. Not just universities and students, but also companies who are looking to sponsor competitions or sponsor the sales programs, use the Annual to recruit and find out where individuals wanna go, that sort of thing.” 

Take a Sales Class

“Talk to one of your peers who is in the sales program. Some of them are very selective, and you have to actually apply and go through a series of interviews, but you can still take a class without having to get to that point. If your university doesn’t offer sales, then talk to your professor. If you’re in marketing or communications, find out why not. Maybe it’s not in the college of business; maybe it’s in the college of communications or arts or agribusiness or entrepreneurship or engineering. Just check it out. Talk to your friends, and find out if anybody else is interested in sales.”

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Marty Holmes: I would say, take the opportunity to take a class, talk to one of your peers who is in the sales program. You know, some of them are very selective and you have to actually apply and go through a, series of interviews, but you can still take a class without having to get to that point.

[00:01:03] Kristen Wisdorf:  Hello hustlers. Welcome back to another episode of the Tech Sales is for Hustlers: Campus Series. I’m your host, Kristen Wisdorf, joined by Libby Galatis. Hey Libby.

[00:01:14] Libby Galatis: Hey everyone. How’s it going?

[00:01:16] And we are super excited today. We have Marty Holmes, who’s the Executive Director of the Sales Education Foundation. We’re really excited to pick her brain and learn a little bit more about the work that the Sales Education Foundation is doing and how they partner with universities and students.

[00:01:33] Kristen Wisdorf: Welcome to the podcast, Marty.

[00:01:35] Marty Holmes: Oh, thanks, Kristen. And thanks, Libby. I appreciate the invite. I’m excited to share some information about SEF, and let’s get started.

[00:01:44] Kristen Wisdorf: Let’s get into it. Okay, Marty, you’ve probably caught on ’cause I know we were chatting a little bit about how you’ve listened to a few episodes in the past, so our listeners know what’s coming, but if you could take 60 seconds to kinda give us your highlight reel or tell us about you, what would you say? Who is Marty Holmes?

[00:02:03] Marty Holmes: Well, Marty Holmes has been in about four different industries. Believe it or not, all of them were sales-related, but I knew nothing about the Sales Education Foundation. I actually found out about SEF  accidentally. I went to dinner with a group of folks, and the Executive Director at the time was in at the table and she asked me what I was currently doing.

[00:02:25] And I said, well, I just left the, uh, sales management program at Whole Foods, and so I’m not sure where I’m going next, but, she said, “Well, come and see me at the office.” She gave me her address and her phone number. I went to visit her. She told me about SEF. They had been in existence about three years at the time, already making great strides towards their mission, which is elevating the sales profession through university education.

[00:02:53] And I thought, wow, this sounds exciting. And I am very interested. So, I ended up getting hired, working with her for a couple of years, moving into the, uh, Associate Director role. And then, in August of 2021, I became the Executive Director. I would say formally became the executive director of SEF.

[00:03:16] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay, this is amazing. So, a lot of, if not all of our guests are probably quite familiar with SEF, but for some of our student or early in their professional career listeners, they might not know what SEF is. So, can you give us, kind of the overview of what SEF is? I know you said the mission is to connect the sales professor, profession with university education.

[00:03:37] Marty Holmes: Mhm.

[00:03:37] Kristen Wisdorf: What does that mean? What does that mean in reality and in practice?

[00:03:41] Marty Holmes: Okay. So the founders of SEF ,Howard and Sally Stevens, they wanted to elevate sales to a degree at university. And at the time that they kind of got started, back in 2007, they knew a few folks who were teaching some sales courses, and this was in the state of Ohio at the time. And they got a group together and said, “What can we do to get more professors, more colleges of business, to understand that sales is a viable, rewarding career that deserves to have a body of knowledge taught at university?” So, they decided, “Okay, one thing we can do is, we can help universities that are teaching sales to promote the sales.” That’s where the SEF annual took off originally in 2007. “We can create a survey and we can send it out to universities.

[00:04:38] Let’s find out who is teaching sales and what are they teaching.” So that became the pivotal moment with the creation of the magazine. In the first three years, it was actually a supplement to selling power back in the days when there was actually a magazine that you would flip through, you would get it in the mail.

[00:04:58] It was really kind of cool at the time. And then, in 2010, we took the annual to our own, pro, pro as our own project, I come from one of my previous lives in graphic arts, and I said, I’ll be happy to put this thing together. This is my, this is where I know what I’m doing, and so we took it on as a project of our own back to 2007.

[00:05:21] What can we do? We could offer some research grants to doctoral students interested in studying sales. We need Ph.D. s with a focus or a major in sales. We need those to help the universities to build their programs because of many of the requirements that they must have a Ph.D. on staff as part of the program. So, we can start a research grant program, and we did that with the help of Neil Rackham.

[00:05:51] Neil is a very well-known author. Yes, I see Libby shaking her head. Yeah, Neil was a, acquaintance of Howard and Sally Stevens, became a very good friend, believed in what they were doing and gave us the seed money to start that research grant program. And we’ve been running it ever since, since 2011.

[00:06:13] So what else can we do? Well, we can help the universities to meet with each other. Now, how do we do that? Well, it was a, a real hard-fought decision. But during those talks, we were presented with an idea from some folks at Florida State University and Rollin’s College who said, “We are going to start a Sales Educators Academy.”

[00:06:38] And we said, “Can we sponsor, can we sponsor? That’s exactly what we’ve been wanting to, to figure out how to do,” so we’ve been a sponsor of that every year since. So, those are kind of the main drivers of what SEF does.

[00:06:52] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s really exciting. And I, it, you know, it, it is not surprising. I, I graduated college in 2008. So the foundation started in 2007, and just since, you know, I graduated college, and I took sales classes through my sales program at Wisconsin–Eau Claire. And now, seeing how many universities there are, how many sales professors, how many universities have kinda leaned into teaching sales. Clearly, you have had an impact from 2007 until now. So, can you talk a little bit about how SEF has grown and just by sheer numbers over kind of its lifetime?

[00:07:29] Marty Holmes: Okay, sure. I love to talk about SEF, so you won’t have any problem getting me to do that. So, as I mentioned before, we started a survey that we send out each year by invitation only. And we collect data, the data we put together and publish it in the listing. 2007, there were actually 27 universities that we found that were offering some type of formal sales education. It could be a course; it could be a certificate. Back during that time, there weren’t a lot of majors and minors, there are now. So that went over really well with the public, and it, it, it sparked a lot of people’s interest. And most of the sales programs, as we call them casually, were run through the College of Business.

[00:08:18] Now we have agribusiness offering sales, there’s actually a minor in sales in Texas, at Texas A&M and agribusiness sales or AgriFood sales, I believe is what they call it. Colleges of engineering, entrepreneurship. It’s grown beyond just college of business. So, every year we’ve seen incremental increases in the number of universities.

[00:08:44] There was one year in particular, and I think that was like, 2012, where we had about a 20% increase in the universities to that completed our survey. Now, if they don’t complete our survey, we don’t put them in the magazine because the, the kind of the agreement between us and the universities is that you’re gonna provide all this information and it’s going to be as accurate as possible.

[00:09:08] Marty Holmes: And we’re gonna take what you give us, and we’re gonna put it together in the listing, and we’re providing, you know, things like, does the program have, require sales in internships? Do they have a sales lab? What’s their job rate, job placement rate at graduation? Those kind of things that people would be really interested in knowing.

[00:09:27] And then, I think in the first year, there was a couple of international universities over in Europe, and that has grown as well. And we recognize that university education in other parts of the world is quite different than it is here in the US. And we respect that. So, we give them that, you know, a leeway in explaining to us what it is they’re doing; many times, the sales courses taught in Europe are actually at the universities of applied sciences because sales is seen more as a science than it is in art.

[00:10:05] And we believe that firmly sales is a science. There are processes you can follow. If you have the background that you get at university, then the company that hires you can teach and train you on the product or the service that you’ll be selling. But you have that foundational background that you need to be able to ramp up faster and stick with the company longer. If you make that good fit, you know, find that good match and that sort of thing. So 2022 was a big year for us in the annual, we had a totally redesigned concept. We put it out to the world. We had quite a few authors from other parts of the world, and we found 172 of our top universities, 18 international. And then, we have a group called other notables where we give them an opportunity to be listed, but they’re not meeting all the criteria for our top program. There were 22 of those. And when you add all that up together, you come out with 220 universities, which is the most we’ve ever had listed.

[00:11:18] Kristen Wisdorf: Wow. That is absolutely incredible. And wait, I’m sorry, I, did I, did I hear you right? Was it 20 in 2007? How many in 2007?

[00:11:26] Marty Holmes: Uh, 27.

[00:11:27] Kristen Wisdorf: 27 to 220. 

[00:11:30] Marty Holmes: Mhm.

[00:11:31] Kristen Wisdorf: That is absolutely incredible and amazing. I, I mean, honestly, as someone who took sales classes in college, a few, and I was, you know, I, I consider myself lucky to have gone to a university that had sales education back then, so a while ago.

[00:11:47] But, it’s just amazing, and obviously, as a, as a sales hiring manager and a campus recruiter, it’s just incredible to have so many more universities leaning in and offering this curriculum to their students because it’s going to get them great jobs outta college, and it’s real practical education that can help them regardless of their career.

[00:12:08] Kristen Wisdorf: So, it’s very exciting. 

[00:12:09] Um, yeah. I was really interested in how you mentioned the International University Sales Education is quite different other than being part of applied sciences. Are there any kind of notable differences in sales education? Outside of the US, they know a lot of our students graduate, and they wanna get ultimately like work for a company where they can go international.

[00:12:30] It’s just interesting how it might be different.

[00:12:32] Marty Holmes: I would say that, uh, the majority of cases, they focus more on sales, leadership, and sales management than, than many other programs in the US do. It’s just a, a different methodology, I believe. Not knowing the details other than what the information we collect. I do know that there’s a big focus on, on leadership and management and research as well.

[00:12:59] So that’s, I would say, probably one of the big differences, just trying to, you know, name a couple.

[00:13:06] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, that’s great. It’s interesting. And you know, we’ve had a few guests on our podcast recently who, they’re like next version or the way they plan to grow their sales program or curriculum is by offering more of the sales, leadership, and sales management education. So, which absolutely makes sense.

[00:13:24] It’s kind of the next, the next step, or the next thing to add to their curriculum. So, I remember getting the actual selling power magazine in my first job, outta college. And as a campus recruiter, I often open and use and read your, your online magazine, SEF, um…

[00:13:43] Marty Holmes: Terrific.

[00:13:44] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, the PDF. So talk to us a little bit about that, about building the magazine and the publication and what goes into it and how you partner with universities and sales programs to, to put it out every year.

[00:13:56] And if people were to go, when they listen to this episode and, and look for it, what would they find in the magazine?

[00:14:02] Marty Holmes: Oh, well, um, typically they would find articles from guest authors. We don’t write any of the articles ourselves. We, let’s just say, we seek out individuals who are interested in our theme topic for that year, and we invite them if they’re interested to write for us. So practically everything you read in the annual comes from someone else who’s a guest author. We develop a theme, typically in the fall of the previous year. Okay, what’s our ideas, like I said, 2022, our theme was professional sales around the world or around the globe, you know, and we had one of our board members, who’s an academic at University of Toledo and she said, I’ve got a great idea.

[00:14:50] Let’s do this article about a sales education journey around the globe, and it turned out very well because she has connections all over the world; she got people to, to, you know, contribute different snippets of what’s going on, who has a program where sales is not really recognized as a university degree, and there are still many places where that is it’s, as I said earlier, it’s recognized more as art, that you get taught by your company. So that worked out very well. There’s a sales competition in Europe, and we know those folks. I reached out to them and said, “Hey, would you be interested in writing an article about the European sales competition?”

[00:15:32] Marty Holmes: And, of course, most people jump at the chance to write because it gives them the exposure and the subject matter that they’re writing about. Whether it be a competition or a pet project. So, they jumped at the chance that made a real interesting, global piece that, that the individuals, not just universities and not just students, but companies who are looking to sponsor competitions or sponsor the sales programs, they use the annual to recruit, find out where they wanna go,

[00:16:07] that sort of thing. And speaking of sales program partnerships, as a gentleman at Ohio University, who had written a series over the summer last year about sales at university, and each of his articles had a different topic. And I said, would you love to take that topic that you wrote about sales program partnerships and expand that so that we could put that in the annual because that’s where a lot of folks who don’t know

[00:16:37] about sales education and how the program partnerships work, don’t understand why sales programs have a corporate sponsorship platform. So he wrote a great piece on that. So that educates not only other universities who are maybe just thinking about starting a sales program and don’t really know how everyone else funds theirs. And then companies too, who are thinking, “Hmm, I’d like to really get in, you know, get into a sales program so that I can, can see the graduates and I get a chance to interview them and, and perhaps offer ’em an internship or maybe even a job after graduation and that sort of thing.” So, so that went very well.

[00:17:26] That was a really successful article. And then we had things like, how to make relationships selling more effective. Obviously, that’s changed greatly. The gentleman that wrote that has his own company, as well as he is one of our advisory board members, and it just goes on and on and on about what we have available within each year’s annual.

[00:17:48] Marty Holmes: And we do put a few things in there about ourselves because, after all, it’s our magazine.

[00:17:55] Libby Galatis: I, it, it’s just, so interesting because we typically, you know, when we have sales educators come in, we focus heavily on the students and their experience, and your mission and the mission of the magazine is to educate the educators. To, to spread the word and spread the insight to the educators on the importance and value. 

[00:18:13] And, I mean, you’ve grown so much, so obviously you’re reaching the right audience, you know, your res, your message is resonating with those programs that may just didn’t know that it existed and that this was a thing.

[00:18:25] Marty Holmes: Right. 

[00:18:25] Libby Galatis: So, I think that’s a real, really interesting perspective, and take on this, this podcast that we have.

[00:18:31] Libby Galatis: So, I just wanted to throw that in there, but you, you’ve mentioned a couple of times, and you’ve emphasized with great importance, the differentiation between sales, being an art versus a science and how your mission sales as a science. Can you tell us more about that? Why such an important differentiation are we putting on that? And then what is the difference between the two when it comes to sales or the perception of the two.

[00:18:56] Marty Holmes: Sure. Great, great topic. First off, I’d like to say we do educate the educators, but our ultimate goal is to educate the public. The public includes the companies, the recruiters, the sales force, the students, the parents, and the universities. So somebody asked me, “What is your audience?” And I said, “Well, it’s pretty much everybody.”

[00:19:20] If you’re interested, if you’re curious, you know, then that’s, then you’re our audience. So it’s pretty much everyone. Okay, art versus science. It’s interesting because Neil Rackham, again, I’ll throw that name out there because he helped us put together a video. Actually, we have two that were done about a decade ago.

[00:19:43] “The New Selling of America,” which won a Regional Emmy, it was done with public TV, ThinkTV in Dayton, Ohio, and then we have the science of sales, and both of those are on YouTube. The science of sales talks about selling a mouse trap and why it’s so important to understand the science behind selling a mouse trap, which I think is really kind of neat.

[00:20:06] Marty Holmes: It’s only a 30-minute video, so it’s, it’s fun to watch. So, the science of sales means that it’s a teachable process. The art is the part that the individual puts into it, their own uniqueness, their way of communicating, their way of taking the information that they have from their company on their product or their service and putting it into their own words, the art of communication.

[00:20:40] Now that’s important, and of course, we do teach communication in, in many universities. So the science is teaching you the how and the why. And the art is giving you an opportunity to bring in your own personality and your own self. And to how you actually perform the how and the why, does that kinda make sense?

[00:21:06] Kristen Wisdorf: Absolutely. We, we believe that sales is a series, it’s a process, it’s a series of systems and the systems that you put in place, and ultimately that anyone can be successful in sales. It’s not just an introvert’s game and/or an extrovert’s game, right? Like a lot of people think it is, but if you can learn the system and the processes, and then, of course, you know, you have to be diligent in following them.

[00:21:33] And then, as you learn and develop, add in that kind of what makes you, you, and bring your own personality to it. Anyone can be successful in sales and, you know, it’s kind of our philosophy that, if it’s part of the memoryBlue model, people come in, everyone comes in and goes through our academy, which is our version of, you know, our sales training.

[00:21:51] And it, it is exactly that it’s a system and it’s a process to follow so that you can kind of get back at square one. So, when the prospect knocks you off your game, or you hear an objection that, even though it’s part of the process, you know, it still kind of gets in your head. You can follow and kind of, kind of go back to this system.

[00:22:12] And then as you, as you get better and hone your skills and develop, you can add more and more of your own personal flair and personality to it.

[00:22:21] Marty Holmes: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. 

[00:22:23] Kristen Wisdorf: So, we absolutely agree with that, and I think it’s great. And I think it should be really comforting for a lot of students, people early in their career, professors, and parents, and influencers to know that it doesn’t take it’s not just one type of person.

[00:22:38] It’s not just someone who’s an extrovert, or, you know, the person who always had the lemonade stand every summer, that’s built for sales, their child, their friend, their student can be successful in this career, which is really kind of exciting to…

[00:22:54] Marty Holmes: Absolutely. And you know, sales, when, when you say sales to someone who’s not familiar, they see it as one thing, and one thing only. But sales is so many different things, and there’s so many different roles, there’s, you know, ways to, to get yourself out there and to be, like you said, an extrovert and then there’s ways to respond, which introverts love.

[00:24:24] And, and it’s a way to be, as I say to a lot of folks, it’s, it’s being a colleague, it’s being an advisor, it’s being a consultant. It absolutely is, and if you’re curious and you like to get excited about things, if you have passion, you’re, chances are, you’re gonna be really good at certain types of sales because they’re all not the same.

[00:24:52] You know, one of the words that has been thrown around over the recent years has been adaptability and being agile. And like you said, you have to, you know, if somebody throws you a curve ball, then you go back to your processes. And you think for a few moments, okay, now this is, this is how I need to handle the situation.

[00:25:12] And that’s where your, your training and your science comes in, and then your ability to improvise and to, have answers and to come up with solutions on a dime, so to speak. That’s kind of your artistic part.

[00:25:30] Kristen Wisdorf: Absolutely. You know, you mentioned that when people hear the word sales, they, a lot of people, can think very different things, right? So given, yeah, give given SEF’s kind of mission, right? To educate and then elevate the sales profession. What are some of the common challenges or maybe misconceptions that you face as a foundation when, you know, elevating sales as a profession to all of your audiences?

[00:25:59] Marty Holmes: It, it’s funny because the number one thing we face is a lack of knowledge; people don’t know about us. They don’t know we exist. We have a pretty good social media presence, you know, we try to put things out there on a regular basis, but I am not surprised almost weekly, I hear, “I didn’t know you were out there if I’d only known you were out there.”

[00:26:21] “I didn’t know this existed,” you know, that kind of thing. So, so getting, getting folks to recognize that we exist is probably our number one challenge, just because we’re a small nonprofit. I tell people we are a, we, well, let me, let me rephrase that. We have a big footprint in a very small space ’cause sales education is a very small space, it’s growing,

[00:26:47] and I, you know, we know it’s gonna continue to grow because the evidence is there, the companies are getting involved, the educators are excited. And more students are, recognizing, you know, that it’s that curiosity that I spoke about. Universities in many places do a really great job of having student ambassadors that go around to the different organizations, and they tell their, their peers what’s going on and to come and check this out.

[00:27:18] And they’re really the, the graduates are the biggest supporters of the future, of sales education, because they’ve done it, they’ve lived it, they’re out in the world, or they’re getting ready as, as seniors, to go out. They’ve already got great internships under the belt. Many of them have job offers. So they’re, they’re really the advocates for continuing to excite students to consider sales as a career.

[00:27:51] That’s, I guess, our biggest challenge is just getting recognition.

[00:27:55] Libby Galatis: Definitely. And, honestly, memoryBlue being a smaller company, I mean, I campus recruited for memoryBlue for two years until I transitioned on the team that I’m on now. But that, that aha moment with the students where it was like, “Hey, I didn’t even know companies like you existed. I didn’t even know

[00:28:12] profession, or starting here could open up these kinds of doors for me in such a short timeframe.” And it’s all, it’s just about, it’s information, it’s connectivity, it’s… And I imagine, on, on the sales program level, across the universities, the communication between the programs, just hearing what other universities are doing, and the impact it’s having on their students and the sharing of ideas, it’s just, I mean, it’s just spreading the word even more, which is great.

[00:28:37] Marty Holmes: It’s big. Yeah. Yeah. It is big. And that’s, you know, again, another one of our audiences to use the annual is other universities. We get emails and requests for information, you know, “I, I want to get my Dean excited about adding sales to our offering.” And, and so we talk about, you know, take the annual,

[00:29:00] show whoever you’re trying to talk to what other universities are doing. I mean, here’s evidence and, and they’ve reported what they’re doing. You know, their job placement rates. I mean, the majority of them are 90 to a hundred percent and, you know, the students are getting jobs, I know, oh my gosh, how many years ago must have been,

[00:29:21] I’m gonna say at least six to seven years ago, Baylor University did study, and they, and this was, you know, back several years that the average sales student had almost three job offers way before they ever graduated. And that has been accelerated to even more. I see the thumb going up, yeah.

[00:29:43] Marty Holmes: Yeah.

[00:29:43] Kristen Wisdorf: Oh, yeah.

[00:29:44] Marty Holmes: Yeah. So, you know, when you’re talking about getting a, a, a really well-paying job that has an opportunity for advancement, you know, you start out in one role, and most companies you can grow, you can get into being a league or a manager or an SVP of sales, or, you know, there’s just, sales is one of those, career growing opportunities.

[00:30:07] It’s not stagnant at one position unless you want it to be. Some people are very happy, doing one thing for a long time, but that’s not the majority of folks they wanna know that advancement’s there and that opportunity is there.

[00:30:22] And, there’s like a, there’s a million different industries out there. Um, and I wanna take a, a step back for a second. I know that you did not wanna focus on yourself and your story very much on this podcast, but unfortunately, we are gonna back up a little bit and, and dive into that for just a second.

[00:30:37] Could you walk us through all of the industries that you personally have been part of professionally? Because I feel that your journey is, is really kind of a key proponent to this next question I have for you, but I wanna talk a bit more about how you came into the role that you’re in now.

[00:30:52] Marty Holmes: Okay. So, I was in retail sales from the very beginning, and I love dealing with people. I’ve always been kind of a real people person, so that suited me just fine. My father had worked at a commercial printer, ended up owning the company with a partner. He invited me to come into that industry.

[00:31:13] And then an emergency situation pushed me into that industry, which was mostly male-dominated at the time. And I discovered that “Hey, I’m still selling.” I mean, there’s the manufacturing side, but obviously, you have to have a client and a customer wanting something in order to have the manufacturing take place.

[00:31:35] So there was a lot of selling going on and learning that part of the business, which was great. And then another emergency situation forced me into rethinking my life, so to speak. And I love to cook, and I love gourmet foods. I had an opportunity to go to work for a woman who was actually a client of ours at the, at the printing industry.

[00:31:59] And she ran a French-style open market. The, to be honest with you, to this day, I’ve only seen one or two things that came close to what she was offering in a small town in North Carolina, where I’m from. And had gourmet foods, gourmet cookware, gourmet appliances, all sorts of things, gourmet gifts.

[00:32:22] And so, she invited me, she said, “Would you like to come to work for me?” And I said, “Yes, I would” because I thought, “Well, I’ll try it. If I don’t like it, there’s always something else.” Well, I absolutely loved it ’cause again, I could use my knowledge of foods, and, and gourmet items, you know, that you would cook with, that you would use as a, an open house gift that would, you know, all sorts of things.

[00:32:49] Marty Holmes: It was just a real variety of products. And then she had a catering service on the side. So I was doing constant selling, and I quickly realized that I was very good at upselling. Someone would come in for one thing, and they would leave with 5 or 6 or 10 or 12 things, you know, and you would be like, “Oh, by the way, next time you come in, you’ve got to try this.”

[00:33:13] And we would put out samples for people to try to get them excited. And, and it was fun, and I was getting paid for it, so it was great. And I worked, and kind of helped sell some of the catering on the side. And then, another client that I knew, who ran a white linen tablecloth Italian restaurant in my small town in North Carolina, which was, I guess you could say, visited by people from all over the world.

[00:33:42] There were two company headquarters in our town, and it would bring in people from Europe and, and, uh, stars, sports stars and that sort of thing. And he said, “Why don’t you come to work for me if you have time, and why don’t you run my wait staff and then run my restaurant on Sundays so I can have a day off?”

[00:34:03] Well, I had eaten at his establishment many times, and I knew everything was made from scratch. So, I said, that sounds like fun. And I ended up spending almost a decade there because it paid very well. The clientele was, was very gracious, and, it was fun. And so long time before that, I had always thought, gee, I wanna be a sommelier.

[00:34:27] I wanna know about wine, I wanna be able to recommend wine, talk about wine. I, I loved wine. So, he taught me all about Italian wines, and it was fun to go around to the tables. I mean, some of these folks were very influential. The queen of Portugal visited one time, which I, yeah, yeah. And, and, and of course, I got to go up and talk to her, and, and I mean, just all kinds of interesting people.

[00:34:53] But, I also got to talk about wine and recommend wine. And even back then, we’re talking about bottles that were, you know, nowadays, a hundred dollars is not crazy for a bottle of wine, but back then, it was quite extravagant for someone to drop a hundred dollars for one bottle of wine, but many people did it because the wine was worth it.

[00:35:12] So I ended up being there for a long time, and then I met a gentleman who ended up being hired and moved me to Ohio. Oh, I forgot, in the meantime, I went into the sales and into the management program at Whole Foods. The idea behind that was when you go through that program, you end up having your own store to manage.

[00:35:40] Marty Holmes: And that was my long-range plan at that point. Again, Whole Foods is fantastic. It’s a, it’s a wonderful store, full of all kinds of great things that I used to know a lot about. And at the time, I’m like, this is perfect, you know, so you have to go through an interview process, and you have to talk, you know, they ask you all these questions about all kinds of food and retail-related.

[00:36:04] You know, it’s really, really extensive, and I got accepted, but then I met this gentleman, and he had just taken an opportunity. Kind of a special opportunity of his lifetime and was moving to Ohio. So I resigned from the management program at Whole Foods and, and went with him to Ohio. That’s where I met Stevens.

[00:36:30] And that’s where I learned about SEF. Now that’s a crazy story, I know, but

[00:36:34] Kristen Wisdorf: I love it. Well, there’s a common thread or a common theme throughout that story. Well, there’s a few, but what struck me is, like, every next kind of role or step or, you know, part of your career, is from someone you met, someone you ended up meeting and talking to, or a client and, you know, that led you to your next opportunity.

[00:36:57] And I think, you know, given you have this background in sales and communicating and talking with people like, right, like that creates opportunities. So, I think that’s really special, and it’s very common for a lot of our guests, you know.

[00:37:11] Marty Holmes: It is.

[00:37:12] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, they don’t end up being sales educators, but this series of events kind of pushes them to it, or that’s how they end up finding themself.

[00:37:19] And so it’s really exciting. And, how cool that you have had leadership and what seems kind of like retail experience and, um, your first role being at, with the printing manufacturing company. It’s like a perfect combination for what you do at SEF now with the publication and, 

[00:37:36] Marty Holmes: Yeah, it’s really kind of,

[00:37:37] Kristen Wisdorf: combines it all.

[00:37:38] Marty Holmes: Yeah, it’s really kind of crazy the way it worked out, you know, when I think back on it. And, uh, and, and I get to talk about this on occasion, you know, that sometimes you fall into situations, and sometimes situations present themselves to you, and you have to be willing to look at the offer,

[00:37:58] and think about where might this lead. And I never really thought about where this might lead because it just, it almost seems like a natural progression, as I look back when, you know, you could consider it a little bit of good luck. But it’s, it is, you know, people say it’s who, you know, well, maybe, a tiny little bit is who you know, but it’s also what you know.

[00:38:23] It’s the combination of those two things that’s going to get you wherever it is you want to go.

[00:38:30] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, absolutely. When you, either talk to professors, or parents or, you know, any, anyone who’s kind of the target audience of SEF students, obviously, what do you like, what is like the biggest piece of advice you would give someone who’s interested or curious about joining their sales program at their university or even just taking one class and getting involved in some curriculum?

[00:38:57] Like what would you say to someone who’s considering that?

[00:39:00] Marty Holmes: Well, actually, you just said it for me. I would say, take the opportunity to take a class, talk to one of your peers who is in the sales program, you know, some of them are very selective, and you have to actually apply and go through a series of interviews. But you can still take a class without having to get to that point.

[00:39:23] And if your university doesn’t offer sales, then talk to your professor. If you’re in like marketing or communications and find out why not, and find out, maybe if it’s not in the college business, maybe it’s in the college of communications or arts or agribusiness or entrepreneurship or engineering, or, you know, just, check it out,

[00:39:45] talk to your friends, find out if anybody else is interested in sales. And, you know, when you said, when I mentioned parent earlier, I have this great quick story, I don’t know how much time we have left, but it’s a quick story. I got a call one time from a parent whose son was home from university for Christmas break.

[00:40:06] Marty Holmes: And he said, “My son sat down at the kitchen table with me and my wife this morning and, and said, ‘I wanna go and change my major, and I wanna minor in sales.'” And the father said, “I immediately said, ‘What you want to do? What sales? What in the world?'” So, he googles sales education, and saw Sales Education Foundation and called.

[00:40:32] And so we started talking about the placement rate, the opportunities, the internships, the competitions, all those things. And he said, “You know, I’m gonna share this conversation with my wife, and I think if that’s what my son really wants to do, I should give him a chance.” So probably, and I never asked, because it can be a touchy subject with folks, but I suspect there was great bit of negativity in him and his wife’s thoughts about sales.

[00:41:06] And when people find out that’s not what you think it is, they typically have an open mind.

[00:41:13] Libby Galatis: Definitely, a hundred percent agree with that. I mean, more times than not, especially when we’re hiring college students, their parents are involved and curious, and this is newer territory for a lot of young people and, and their parents are included in that decision, as well. So I, I mean, it’s all just about sharing information, providing insight to make an informed decision

[00:41:33] Marty Holmes: Yes.

[00:41:33] Libby Galatis: to, you know, and, and having that in front of you.

[00:41:35] So, um, something that you had mentioned when you were talking to us about all of the experiences that you kind of took on and tackled and learned from, this mentality of “I’ll try it, and if I don’t like it, I’ll try something else.” 

[00:41:47] Marty Holmes: Mhm.

[00:41:48] Libby Galatis: And I think that, I mean, I don’t know you very well, this is our very first conversation, but you seem to really love what you’re doing now, 

[00:41:55] Marty Holmes: Oh, yes.

[00:41:56] Libby Galatis: and you, you really dive head first into it.

[00:41:58] So I guess, what do you love most and what motivates you most in your current role and where do you see, you know, your, your career moving in the future?

[00:42:08] Marty Holmes: I think I’m home to stay at SCF. When I first met the executive director at the time and, she started telling me, you know, what, what they’re trying to do, what they wanna do. I love the idea. I use the term, uh, philanthropic heart. You know, many of us have that and, and want to contribute in some way, some can financially, and some can in a very big way financially, others can contribute by their service or their volunteerism.

[00:42:41] And to start with, I almost considered it like volunteerism because it was a, a part-time opportunity. But, I loved the idea of helping to create something that was new, not just that we were creating it, but we were creating the opportunity for more people to find out about it, to embrace it, to get involved in it.

[00:43:06] And, and that was where I saw the, the it was kinda like the big aha moment. You know, this is, this is something that I could have a passion for. And I’ve met so many terrific people and, and had such great opportunities through SCF that, yeah, I, I, you know, unless somebody plops something down in front of me, which, you know, you never say never, but I feel like this is, this is my home and, and where I plan to stay.

[00:43:36] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s amazing. And if you’re interested in checking out more, in taking a peek at the resources and the annual that we spoke about today with Marty, you can head over to salesfoundation.org. There’s tons of great information. Like I said, I typically peep the website a few times a year. I always go through the annual. It’s great.

[00:43:55] And y’all have a podcast now as well.

[00:43:57] Marty Holmes: We do. We started our own podcast last year. We stole from the video I mentioned a few minutes ago, “The new selling of America,” because we, you know, you just keep hearing all this negativity about sales and how horrible it is, and, and people are thinking, you know, by all these stupid movies where car salesmen and, and pushy, shovey, smarmy people.

[00:44:18] So we call it “The New Selling of Sales” because we want people to understand that sales is not what they think it is. And we also have a really active group on LinkedIn, so you can also look us up on there.

[00:44:32] Kristen Wisdorf: Amazing, so salesfoundation.org, check out the podcast, The New Selling of Sales. 

[00:44:37] Marty Holmes: Thank you.

[00:44:38] Kristen Wisdorf: I love that. I, it’s so exciting. I’m really excited when we talk to professors who are kind of changing, you know, the future of sales, and SEF is doing that as well. And we’re the chief beneficiaries of it at memoryBlues to get to hire a lot of your students.

[00:44:55] Marty Holmes: Terrific. We appreciate your time, Marty. Thanks for joining us today.

[00:44:58] Thank you for the invite. It’s been a great pleasure. And, uh, you guys keep up the work, excited to see who your next guest is gonna be.