Tech Sales is for Hustlers Podcast

Campus Series: Matt Lastner – Sales Will Always Have A Seat At The Table

Guest-At-A-Glance

Name: Matt Lastner

What he does: He’s the Assistant Professor of Marketing.

Company: University of North Carolina Wilmington

Noteworthy: After working in inside sales for a few years, Matt realized that his true passion is teaching, so he became a marketing professor focused on sales. 

Where to find Matt: LinkedIn

Key Insights

⚡ Decide if you’re a farmer or a hunter. Inside sales might not be for you, but that doesn’t mean you won’t be successful at outside sales. It all boils down to figuring out your strengths and weaknesses. Try to learn which path is for you. To put it in Matt’s words, decide if you’re a farmer or a hunter. “I’m trying to understand the personality and the comfort level. I’ve got some students that have been very successful in sales, but I can just tell outside sales might not be what they line up best with. So we kind of talk about what they want to do with their careers, how they see themselves being successful, and try to align them with job opportunities that are going to be more appropriate for the way they prefer to operate in the sales spectrum.”

⚡ Build industry knowledge by observing and doing. You can’t become a successful salesperson by learning from textbooks. Instead, you need firsthand experience in the sales world. Matt says his number one advice for all aspiring salespeople is to find a dream company and get a realistic job preview. “If they have a company or a dream job, I say, ‘Okay, figure out what that company is or who you can get connected with, call them up and say: Can I do a ride-along? Is there a mentor there? I’m not asking for a job, I’m not asking for an opportunity, but would it be okay if I spent half a day in the field with one of your reps just to get that realistic job preview? I want to make sure this is actually something that I want to do.'”

⚡ Sales is an excellent career to start with. There are a lot of misconceptions about sales, particularly about what it means to be an entry-level salesperson. Matt wants to teach his students what a career in sales can mean for their professional growth. He says it’s a great starter career. “I spend a lot of time talking to students about how sales is a great entry-level job because you’re going to learn two things very well. You’re going to learn the product inside out. In my opinion, the only people that know the product better than sales reps are the people that designed it because if you’re going to be successful in sales, you have to know what you’re selling — every feature, every benefit — and you’re going to be talking about it every single day. And secondly, the only thing you know better than anybody else in the company is the customer.”

Episode Highlights

You Have to Gain Industry Knowledge by Yourself 

“We can teach them a process, but we can’t teach them industry knowledge. We can’t teach them product knowledge. That’s something they’re going to have to learn. And it’s one of those all-in-due-time things. So we try to counsel them to look for opportunities where companies are going to invest in their success, give them tools within that first year or two that are going to set them up for long-term success in a career in sales, and that might require some patience and understanding. You’re not necessarily going to be out there closing deals and working outside immediately. There’s now a more gradual process to set you up for that long-term success.”

Sales Students Don’t Know What Opportunities They Have 

“We’re finding that we have to do a lot of internal selling, if you will, that students don’t understand what opportunities exist for them. So, I’ve talked to a lot of faculty members and center directors around the country who have echoed that what they need to do to be successful is get in front of students earlier in their college careers to make them aware of the opportunities that exist. And since ours is still new, there are students that reach their senior year and still aren’t aware that our sales center exists and what that means for them and how it can aid them as they advance into a sales career post college.”

Success Doesn’t Happen Overnight

“We talk a lot about it when they’re identifying opportunities that they want to pursue. We tell them that they need to understand that though we spend a lot of time with them, and I think we have a great program at UNCW to prepare them for their careers, we’re not gonna be able to teach them everything they need to know to be successful right off the bat. And that they need to look for jobs that have good training programs and that are going to basically set them up for success. So, if they need to start inside or start in a BDR role where they’re not going to be jumping in and closing deals immediately, that might be the best thing for them long-term because you need to learn the industry; you need to learn about the customers.”

Transcript:

[00:00:18] Kristen Wisdorf: Welcome back hustlers to our podcast. Today, joining us Matt Lastner from the University of North Carolina Wilmington. Welcome to the podcast, Matt. 

[00:01:04] Matt Lastner: Hi. Thank you. Happy to be here. 

[00:01:06] Kristen Wisdorf: And and I am joined by Madisson DeLisle, our Head of Campus Recruiting here at memoryBlue. Hi Madisson.

[00:01:12] Madisson DeLisle: Hi there. How’s it going?

[00:01:13] Kristen Wisdorf: Good. Well, we are super excited to have you join us, Matt. I know this isn’t the first time we’ve chatted, but we want to learn a little bit more about you and your journey, not only in education, but in marketing and sales, as is what we do on the podcast. So we’ll start our chat today by beginning the same way we begin all of our interviews, which is, Matt if you could take 60 seconds to hit us with your highlight reel. Tell us about you.

[00:01:42] Matt Lastner: Wow. Okay. I’m from Maryland originally. Uh, I went to James Madison University for undergrad and spent a glorious four and a half years there. Afterwards I took a job in sales, actually took my first job with Ryan Homes, and went back to Maryland and worked in new home sales for about three years until the financial crisis of 2008 resulted in me getting laid off. Took another job with Aramark and outside sales for roughly a year. I decided that I wanted to beef up my resume, get some management experience, and went to work for a company that provides dietary and housekeeping services to small hospitals, nursing homes. And did operations management for them for about three years, and some business development stuff as well. I decided that education was my true passion and I kind of gave all that up to go and pursue the PhD. Did that down at LSU. Took me five years to get through the program. I’m a slow learner, as I like to joke with my students. And ever since then, I’ve been working as a marketing professor, but mostly focused in sales education.

[00:02:46] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay. There’s a lot to unpack there. That is really exciting. I also was, I graduated in 2008 from college. Right. Not that really the start. I mean, it was already going on, the Great Recession. So, it’s really interesting that you were in sales, and not only sales, but you were in home sales during the Great Recession. 

[00:03:06] Matt Lastner: I was in the belly of the beast.

[00:03:07] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. Like, what was that experience like? That was your first job out of college, right? Like, you’re starting your professional career. How did you navigate such kind of crazy waters?

[00:03:19] Matt Lastner: It was interesting. I was drinking the Kool-Aid because I was 22, 23 years old. I started in 2006, and so six, seven and eight, I was in new home sales. And of course we see no evil, hear no evil. We didn’t want to believe that there was a crisis looming, you know, and that there’s also bubble forming. So, customers of course would ask questions about it. And we kept talking about, we had all these historical charts showing that, “Hey, homes appreciate over time. There’s nothing to worry about here.” I mean, I was drinking the Kool-Aid to the extent that I bought a home in early 2008, which was, in retrospect, not the best idea. So it was very interesting. And I tell my students frequently, I wasn’t writing loans, but I was providing some of that advice and helping them to understand how they could secure financing for their homes. And we were looking at no-documentation loans, and adjustable rate mortgages. And I was doing a lot of first-time home buyers. And part of my job was to educate them about their options. And looking back I feel like I was also part of the machinery that resulted in the housing crisis forming in the first place, that I was recommending, “Hey, you can get an adjustable rate mortgage. This isn’t a bad idea. It’ll help get you into the home, you know, lower your payments to begin with, and.” But, I was 23 years old, and I, I guess, I didn’t know a whole lot better either. I was just kind of following the advice of rules that were training me at the time. 

[00:04:43] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. Like unintentional, right? Like, you were 

[00:04:46] Matt Lastner: Yeah. 

[00:04:47] Kristen Wisdorf: excited in your first job. Yeah, that’s interesting. So, I imagine you learned a lot and you carry a lot of that experience with you in your jobs that came after and now in education. How do you use that experience to educate your students? You mentioned that you talked to them about it. What advice do you give based on that as they, especially as imagine last year, students graduating in the middle of a pandemic, like how does it align and what advice can you give them?

[00:05:16] Matt Lastner: Yeah. I talk about my experience quite a bit. Students seem to like hearing examples from, rather than a book example or a hypothetical, or me talking about widgets, they like to hear concrete examples from my experience, I guess. I always worry they’re going to get tired of hearing stories about when I was working the home building industry, that sort of thing. But, I guess they don’t get tired of it. I particularly highlight areas where maybe I had some failures or tough circumstances. I find that those are more meaningful. If I can describe times that I failed, and what I could have done differently to be more successful. I did struggle during that time quite a bit. So we talk a lot about in sales, of course, that you’re going to go through difficult times. That you need to be able to take the good with the bad, and understand that you will come out of those tough weeks, months, and find success later on if you keep doing the right things and putting in the effort. I was 100% commissioned. And my first community, I was selling from a trailer, a double-wide trailer on the side of Route One in Maryland, which was off site for my community was being built. I was six or seven miles away from where the homes were actually going to be constructed. So I was selling off of blueprints, and it was really challenging. I went months without a sale when I first started there. And, so I was taking drawl from my company to make sure I could pay my bills. So, sharing stories like that with my students and helping them understand that, you know, those were lean times for a couple of months, but eventually started to build the momentum. And, by the end of the year had a successful year, but initially it was a little dodgy. 

[00:06:46] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay. That’s so interesting. And then you parlayed that after Ryan Homes, you went to, into outside sales, you said with Aramark. So, correct me if I’m wrong. Was that like supplies for businesses like?

[00:06:59] Matt Lastner: Yeah. Selling a really sexy products, like floormates, and real work uniforms, and aprons and dish rags. Quite a difference from selling new homes, for sure. 

[00:07:09] Kristen Wisdorf: Okay, let’s talk about the differences. Like, what do you, I guess, what were the things that you really enjoyed about transitioning to outside sales and that job with Aramark? And what are the some of the things you’re like, “Oh man, I kind of, I wish I still was that trailer?”

[00:07:24] Matt Lastner: Yeah. Probably more of, I wish I still was in that trailer. Or, I mean, when I was in Ryan Homes, there were opportunities to tell the communities where I was in a very plush model home all day, roaring fire, and granite countertops, and cherry cabinetry in the house, very nice. So it was quite a transition. The nature of the product being very different. Selling 500, $600,000 homes to formats and trying to position that product. Being able to connect with customers, working more on B2C versus B2B. Obviously there are big differences there. The biggest thing that I talked to my students about is being able to make emotional connections with the customer in a B2C environment is much easier. When you transition to B2B, you’re not gonna be able to pull on the emotions of customers to get them to buy floormates. It’s very utilitarian product. You’re talking more about function and safety, perhaps, with those types of things, of course, But, it’s a little bit more cold and calculating when they’re thinking about the reasons that they should buy. And so the way you position the products going to be very different. I was inside sales initially. Customers predominantly came to me, I like to joke. There’s not a whole lot of cold calling in new home sales. I’m not going to go through the phone book and, “Hey, are you interested in buying a home?” you know, it doesn’t really work that way. They’re generally coming to you. You call out of your past traffic, but those are at least warm calls. Those are people that you’ve met previously. So cold calling was a new animal for me. And, I was a little bit deeper into my career before I started dealing with the challenges of cold calling. And then, the rejection you get, you might go 15, 20, 30 calls in a row where get somebody on the line or if you do, they hang up pretty quickly. So learning how to deal with those challenges was definitely a new for me. So we talk a lot about the differences between B2B and B2C, the differences between inside sales, where customers are generally coming to you. So it’s always, they already have an interest to some extent versus outside sales, where you’re trying to create that interest or help them become aware of a problem that might exist, that you can solve for them. So very different, very challenging. And, like I said, I only spent about a year at Aramark before I decided to switch gears. I wasn’t finding as much success there as I had been an inside sales. And so, that was part of the reason that I’m doing what I do now. I tell my students, I wasn’t the greatest salesperson. I understood what I was doing pretty well but there’s a reason that I’m not still in the game. I think if I was immensely successful, I’d probably still be working in sales and not on the other side of it, teaching. Right. It’s not what they say about teachers? Those that can’t do, teach. I might be an example of that. 

[00:09:46] Madisson DeLisle: Oh, I’ve definitely heard that, but I don’t think it’s always the case. 

[00:09:52] Matt Lastner: I’m the exception. 

[00:09:53] Madisson DeLisle: But, it’s cool that you’ve had both inside and outside experience. Actually Kristen and myself both have done inside and outside as well. And when we’re recruiting, we run into a lot of students that don’t know which they thrive at, don’t know how to go about picking. What advice would you give to someone who’s struggling to decide if they should do outside versus inside sales?

[00:10:16] Matt Lastner: Yeah, that’s a good question. You kind of have to decide if you’re a hunter or a farmer maybe. I think people that can withstand challenge are extremely competitive, know how to deal with loss maybe. A lot of my student athletes, I find, seem maybe better suited to the outside sales where, hey, you know, they’re always pursuing that close and they understand they’re going to face a lot of rejection. Potentially the customers are going to be dealing with almost exclusively cold contacts initially. So, much more challenging to break through versus inside sales where warmer leads are coming your way. It’s a lot easier to pick up that conversation. You can maybe develop more of a relationship with the customers. At least immediately, because they there already have that interest. So I’m trying to understand the personality and the comfort level. I’ve got some students that have been very successful in sales, but I can just tell, like outside sales might not be what they line up best with. So we kind of talk about what they want to do with their careers. How they see themselves being successful and try to align them with job opportunities that are going to be more appropriate for the way they prefer to operate in the sales spectrum. 

[00:11:22] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, that’s really interesting. And even in the last, what, 10 to 15 years sales and opportunities that students get out of school has changed so much, right? It used to be really common to go work for that outside sales, selling floor mats, and hand towels. Now, students have the opportunity to, maybe they do have to go into inside sales because they’re working for a tech company and work their way to that field role. So it’s interesting to see how things shift so much. I still talk to a lot of students who are drawn to that outside sales, because they want that thrill of closing right away. Where, you know, oftentimes, especially in high tech, they won’t be able to close right away. So you had mentioned earlier in your first job, you went many months without a sale. How do you, I guess, work with your students on that instant gratification that especially people in sales need to have, and maybe in inside, SDR world and high tech, they’re not going to be able to close right away? So how do you work and talk them through like, “It’s okay if you don’t see success within the first couple of months. It’s okay if you’re not closing a deal face-to-face immediately.” Like I just imagine there’s a lot of impatience. I know I am, and I was when I graduated college.

[00:12:36] Matt Lastner: You are right that it’s changed quite a bit. We talk a lot about when they’re identifying opportunities that they want to pursue, that they need to understand that though we spend a lot of time with them, and I think we have a great program at UNCW to prepare them for their careers that, we’re not gonna be able to teach them everything they needed to know to be successful right off the bat. And that they need to look for jobs that have good training programs in that are going to basically set them up for success. And if they need to start inside, or starting a BDR role where they’re not going to be jumping in and closing deals immediately, that might be the best thing for them long-term because you need to learn the industry need to learn the customers. So there’s a lot of knowledge that needs to be accrued to be successful. And obviously, we can teach them a process, but we can’t teach them industry knowledge. We can’t teach them product knowledge. That’s something they’re going to have to learn. And it’s one of those all in due time thing. So we try to counsel them to look for opportunities where companies are going to invest in their success logterm. Give them tools within that first year or two that are going to set them up for long-term success in a career in sales. And that might require some patience and understanding you’re not going to be out there necessarily closing deals and working outside immediately. There’s a more gradual process to set you up for that longterm success now. And that might be for in your best interest rather than being thrown into the deep end and seeing if you can navigate it. Even if you’re talented, that’s going to be challenging.

[00:13:55] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s so interesting, We’re saying here, while we’re chatting, it might require some patience, but inherently, really hungry salespeople are naturally inpatient. And so, we have the same thing internally. We talked to our SDRs like, “Hey, we want you to be inpatient. We want you to be hungry and chop at the bit. But we also require some patience to really learn, and get the full experience.” So, we know it’s like a challenging ask for people early in their career. You mentioned, it is good to go to companies that will invest in your success and train you and really help you understand the product. And, just reflecting on your own experience, going from new home sales, to working with businesses on all their business needs to then I think you said you worked with nursing homes and hospitals. Like, those are three very different industries. How did you learn and adapt to those different industries? And what are you think, aside from picking the right company that will invest in them, students and people early in their sales career could do to learn their space on their own as well?

[00:14:57] Matt Lastner: Yeah, well, that’s a great question. So first, I went to a school that James Madison had a great marketing department. I don’t think I took a single sales class. I think I’d remember if I did. So, there was not a sales program. So my first foray into sales, on the job. And so I was kind of learning from zero and then trying to pick it all up after I’d been hired. And so that was challenging. And I talked to my students about, “Hey, take advantage of the opportunity that you have here. Take as many of the sales. If you know that you want to go into sales, take as many of the classes as we offer, even someone that are electives, maybe aren’t required. Get involved in sales competitions, get involved in other ways to develop your skills now so that hopefully, you know, you can kind of hit the ground running a little bit more.” And then, within those training programs, again, try to identify like, it’s a great question to ask during an interview. I tell students, come prepared and ask what does that training program like? And if they say, “Well, there’s a manual that guides you through.” That might not be a company that’s invested in your success. I was fortunate that when I got to Ryan Homes, they had sales trainers at that point in time. So there were people that came out into a whatever community you were working in usually once a month, once every other month and spent time doing a lot of role-plays. Which I tell my students was like, “That’s not going to go away probably. That’s a necessary evil. It’s going to make you better. So get comfortable doing them.” And Aramark as well, after I left the home building with the Aramark and was selling floor mats, and dish racks, et cetera. They had a great training program. When I got to my last job, I spent three years in operations management. That was a, “Here’s a manual, read it. And this is going to explain to you how to do the job.” And that was challenging. And there wasn’t much mentorship there. It was more, “Hey, figure it out on your own.” And, I didn’t feel like that company was invested in my success. I kind of felt like I was on an island most of the time, and that really kind of sucked the joy out of working for me, and that’s when I started thinking about what do I really want to do with my life? And I think it worked out. I mean, I’m very passionate about education, so I’m glad I found my way to where I am now. But, I guess that was a kick in the pants that I needed. The other companies seemed invested in my success even if I wasn’t finding great success, they at least were putting me through quality training programs, and they seem to be wanting to help me reach my full potential even if I was finding some challenges along the way.

[00:17:12] Madisson DeLisle: It’s interesting to hear you say you never took a sales class seen as obviously now you’re on the educational side of sales. So tell us a little bit about how you transitioned. I know you said that you weren’t happy. So you started thinking about what you might want to do. How did this become what that was?

[00:17:31] Matt Lastner: Yeah. I actually started when I was still in school. I thought that, I thought the being professor seemed like a fun job. Something that, I joke with my students. I mean, my plan, like most students is like, “Okay, graduate, make a ton of money, retire early, and ride off into the sunset.” And I kept thinking like, ” Out of the kindness of my heart.” I might, after I retire young with all that money, go back and become an instructor or professor. I was not well-versed on what it took to be a college professor, and teach classes. Didn’t really know much about what getting a PhD meant. I was first-generation college student in my family, so I was kind of always figuring it out along the way. When I got into that last job, and I had a one and a half hour commute one direction into the area where I was working. So I had to go from the Baltimore area down around the DC Beltway, and into Northern Virginia out into, uh, as far as like Winchester someday. So, I mean, it was a lot of time to think behind the wheel and started thinking, ” What am I going to do with my life?” And kept thinking about education and being a professor. So, that was kind of the impetus for me deciding to go that route. I honestly didn’t know what it was I wanted to do, kind of honed in on marketing, and then learn that sales was kind of this area of marketing that aligned very closely with my past and my work experience, and also my interest. I really enjoy sales, but I guess I enjoy more coaching people through the process, teaching and training students on how to be successful. I often wonder like, “How successful could I be if I went back into it now, knowing what I do, having studied it for the past several years?” But I’m much, much happier, teaching students how to do it then I guess I was when I was actually doing it myself. 

[00:20:13] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, I think it’s interesting. And you mentioned earlier that students love to hear the real life stories. And I mean, I would agree. I liked that when I was in my sales class in college, and I found our SDRs today, they like to hear real life stories. In fact all of our SDRs come through the four walls of memoryBlue, they go through the same bootcamp training academy. And we ask them, we send them a survey at the end, and we ask them for their feedback, every single time. And every like 9 out of 10 SDRs will always say, “I like hearing real calls, real examples, real life.” And so I think, you really enjoy what you’re doing now, but that those three previous sales jobs, all very different jobs and operations, helps you, I think, be a great professor. Because students can learn from that real life experience that you have.

[00:21:00] Matt Lastner: Absolutely. I think I’d struggle. think I’m at least a somewhat effective in the classroom, hopefully. And I think a lot of that is that I have previous experience. As much as I love my job, I don’t think I’d be very good at it if I went straight through from undergrad, master’s, PhD never worked. I draw on that experience constantly in the classroom to bring the material to life. That’s what my job is. Otherwise I could just give a textbook outright and say, “Read this.” My job is to relate it to students in a way that hopefully makes those concepts more concrete and memorable. So that they can retain that information and use it to be successful in their career. So, it was a tumultuous seven-to-eight year ride when I was working across those three different jobs. Very different, as you say. But, it was a good thing ultimately, because it’s made me more effective as an educator. 

[00:21:50] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s great. So drawing on all that experiences, and now your experience working with students and coaching and teaching, let’s talk about like overall your best piece of advice. So the first question is, if there is someone listening who is a student at a college that maybe doesn’t have a sales program or even sales classes, or maybe we have a listener who has already graduated, what advice would you give them if they want to try their hand at sales and, kind of self-teach? Right. Like, are there podcasts, books, like, oh, what recommendation do you have for people to learn if they don’t have the ability to go to one of your classes?

[00:22:27] Matt Lastner: Right. So there’s certainly books and podcasts, YouTube videos, that sort of things that could help guide students along. I advise students do this all the time. I tell them, you know, if they have a company or like a dream job, I say, “Okay, figure out what that company is or who you can get connected with. Call them up and say, ‘ Can I do a ride along? Is there a mentor there? I’m not asking for a job, I’m not asking for an opportunity, but would it be okay if I spent half a day in the field with one of your reps, just to get that realistic job preview? I want to make sure this is actually something that I want to do.'” So that’s the question I get from students after they’re seniors. They’ve basically done their entire program of study and they still aren’t sure, “Is this what I want to do with the rest of my life?” And most of them are 22 and they’re going to be working for another 40 to 50 years, so it’s important, at some point in time you kind of figure out, well, what are you passionate about? What do you want to do? I think getting that realistic job preview is the best advice I can give. I try to do that in the classroom. But for students that don’t have that opportunity, you know, I’m sure you called up someone like Christine and said, “Hey, can you pair me up with someone that I can just, can I observe it? Can I see it?” Most people would be willing to give you that opportunity to get some firsthand experience what it looks like so you can make a more sound decision for what direction you want to go with in your career? And most people, if you ask, “Would you be willing to give me some guidance?” I mean, it’s hard to turn that down, especially an experienced sales professional seeing someone else that wants to break into that industry. They’ll make some time for you, an hour here, an hour there to give you some advice, counsel you. So find that mentor that might be willing to take you under their wing and help you get acclimated to the industry and to the rigors of the job. 

[00:24:04] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, absolutely. I love that advice is to ask for a job preview. Because it’s mini test. Can you ask for something that might make you feel a little uncomfortable? Welcome to sales. And yeah, I mean, shadowing people, picking the brains of people currently doing the role, seeing it and actually test driving, such a good piece of advice. And I think whether you’re in school or not, that’s something that a lot of companies, at least the right companies won’t turn down. So great suggestion. Let’s think back, we call this best day-worst day. So, when you think back to all of your careers and, or your whole career and all of these jobs that you had, what is like the fondest memory that you have? What is one of the best days that you had? And this is obviously pre you being an educator.

[00:24:49] Matt Lastner: Pre-me being an educator. The best day I had, I think, my sales career kind of the pinnacle my career, I had a very successful, we still have to do what we call demo day to get promoted, so I started with Ryan Homes and my first job. You were hired on as what they call it a sales and marketing associate, which was their training program. It was a salary position. You basically were an understudy or an assistant in a community with a commissioned sales rep. And so you learn from them. And they would have sales trainers that would come out and work with you, and you had classroom training as well. And it was meant to be somewhere between 6 and 12 months long, depending on how you were progressing through it. But the goal of course was to get to the point that you were a commissioned sales rep. That’s how you got promoted. But to get there, you had to go through what they call demo day. And demo day meant that one of the regional managers, the regional sales trainer, excuse me, we come out and knock on your door, as if they were a customer. And you had spent three, usually it’s about three hours with them, taking them from the time they knocked on your door to doing the financing and closing, closing the deal. And, I prepared hard for ahead of really, really successful demo day. It was one of those things that, the regional sales trainer would tell others like, “Oh, go train with Matt. He knows how to train.” So as new people were coming on, they would send them to work with me and explain how I did my demo day. Felt really pumped up about how well it went. I got promoted. Now I instantly got thrown into that community where I was, you know, in a double-wide trailer offsite, and I struggled right after that. 

[00:26:21] Kristen Wisdorf: They’re like, “Matt can handle the trailer after his demo day.”

[00:26:24] Matt Lastner: Yeah, I know. Maybe I was too good. I was a victim of my own success. Like, if anybody can handle the trailer, let’s send Matt out there. He doesn’t need a model home to sell. So I guess that might’ve been how it worked. But that was really memorable. I remember feeling very motivated afterwards, because the hard work I’d put in, I saw a lot of, I had that instant gratification I already talk about, and I hadn’t, I’d helped close some deals prior to that, but that was kinda, that was all me. There wasn’t anybody assisting me in closing that deal. I own that all the way through, so that was kind of the first big like, “I can do this job.” And even though I did find a rough patch shortly thereafter, I eventually got on track, and was pretty successful until 2008. And then the financial crisis started. 

[00:27:02] Madisson DeLisle: That’s awesome. I know, not everyone would consider those types of days their best days. I could see a lot, counting not as maybe the worst or the most stressful. So that’s really awesome even if it did land you in the trailer. I do want to take a slight turn ’cause we’d be remiss if we didn’t ask you about your own sales program. So tell us a little bit about the program there at UNCW, and how maybe it differentiates from other programs that are out there. 

[00:27:31] Matt Lastner: Yeah. So we just started our program here a little more than two years ago. We’ve had sales courses for awhile and you’ve, students have been able to kind of concentrate in sales for many years. But we just launched a sales center here two and a half years ago roughly. It’ll be three years this spring. And, we’re continuing to grow the center. Obviously we weren’t anticipating a pandemic, starting shortly after we got our center up and running. So it’s been tough building the momentum and sustaining the momentum that we initially had from the time that we kind of had that ribbon cutting ceremony and launched the center, to where we are now. There’s been a lot of upheaval in between online education versus in face-to-face education. But, what we’re trying to do is to grow the center and, and we’re trying to emulate other successful centers around the country. Sales education has taken on increasing importance. It seems like in higher education, I think there’s greater recognition that business students and marketing students, in particular, end up working in sales. So they need to be properly educated if they’re going to find success in those careers. This was happening before sales education kind of got to the point that it’s reached today. That, historically students are taking jobs in sales. There’s a lot of jobs available in that line of work. So, we’re happy to be a part of helping students be able to hit that ground, hit the ground running, making sure they at least have process training, and general knowledge about the field that they’re entering upon graduation. So, that’s where we’re trying to get our students is that, we’re at least getting them a head start on their career so they’re not starting at ground zero. 

[00:28:57] Madisson DeLisle: Definitely. And I know that it started very shortly before the pandemic, but have you seen a change either in numbers of students joining the center, or maybe demographic of student that’s joining now post, or, you know, now that we’re kind of into the pandemic and who knows? I like to say post, but it’s not over. So who knows. But have you seen any, any changes with those that are wanting to join the center?

[00:29:21] Matt Lastner: Yeah, we’re finding that we have to do a lot of internal selling, if you will. That there’s still, students don’t understand what opportunities exist for them. So, and I’ve talked to a lot of faculty members and center directors around the country that have kind of echoed this, that what they need to do to be successful is get in front of students earlier in their college careers, to make them aware of the opportunities that exist. And since ours is still new, there are students that reach their senior year that aren’t aware that our sales center exists and what that means for them, and how it can aid them as they advance into a sales career post college. So, we are now going and trying to find freshmen and sophomores on campus going into those like initial business classes, kind of like the, the business 200 classes and saying, “Here are resources that are available to you.” Trying to educate them on, I know that some of you might not be thinking about a sales career right now, but you should understand the statistics say that somewhere between 70 and 80% of marketing students find their way into sales. If we go across a campus, there’s statistics that suggest from roughly 50% of college students, regardless of what their program focuses, are going to take a job in sales at some point in their careers. So you want to be prepared for that. So we at least make sure they’re aware of, kind of, our 300-level course professional selling that. And we encourage everybody to take that just so that they at least have some foundation in case they find their way in to sales. Even if that wasn’t where they were intending to go. So a lot of internal selling to make sure that students are aware of it. And as we’ve done more of that, we’ve seen the numbers continue to climb. I was just looking at the number of students I have enrolled for my spring semester. And going back to that idea of being a victim of your own success, we’ve done a good job of recruiting these students. And now my classes are getting larger. So, a lot of those experiential activities, role-plays, as things I love to do. Um, I’m already thinking about how much time it’s going to take to grade all of those on the back end, given the, the fact that the classes are getting larger. But, that’s a good problem to have. 

[00:31:18] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, absolutely. And I imagine with that internal selling, and getting students younger and talking to them about the opportunity, you also kind of have to fight some misconceptions about sales in a sales career. What do you think are the top misconceptions or concerns students might have early until they take one of your classes?

[00:31:38] Matt Lastner: Yeah. I don’t think they understand what it means to, to work in professional sales. And I think a lot of it, it’s probably not the students’ conception of it. At least not developed on their own so much as their parents probably, sales wasn’t something that their parents studied when they went to college. It wasn’t an area of study that was available. So when they send their students to off to college, they don’t expect to hear, “Oh, I’m studying sales.” They still maybe think that that’s the type of job that you could get without a college education. ” Why am I sending you to college if you’re going to go into sales?” I know that that was what my dad told me when I told him I was going to take a job at sales. He says, “I didn’t send you to college to go get a job in sales.” I said, “Well, you need a degree to work in sales these days. And there are a lot of professional sales opportunities that exists that, or gateways into great careers, even if I don’t want to work in sales for 40 years. It’s a good avenue.” I spend a lot of time talking to students about that sales is a great entry-level job because you’re going to learn two things so well. You’re gonna learn the product inside out. The only people that know the product better than sales reps are the people that designed it, in my opinion. Because if you’re gonna be successful in sales, you have to know what you’re selling, every feature, every benefit. And you’re gonna be talking about every single day. And the other thing you know better than anybody else in the company is the customer. Now, if I’m an upper-level management, I’m looking, “Well, who is upwardly mobile in this company? If I’m looking at people that built the company for just a few years, who do I want to promote it to manager positions? Well, I can think of no one better than sales reps who know the product extremely well and know our customer extremely well.” I mean, that knowledge is going to be so useful to you if you want to pivot out of sales at some point in your career. So I try to also get them to think about, I’m not trying to sell you on the idea of working in sales for 40 years although some of you might love that idea, but sales is a great way to start your career because it’s going to open up a lot of doors for you if you decide you want to go a different direction as you advance. 

[00:33:36] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, that’s great. And not only, going back to those marketing majors that a majority end up in sales, well, how strong of a marketer can you ultimately be, and to transition into marketing if you know the customer and the product. So that’s great. It’s interesting. Like you have a challenge, and people who head up the sales programs all across the country have a challenge of not only educating students early, but by way you have to educate their parents, or the other influences in their life. So you’re really not only just changing the future of sales professionals, but just generally this idea of what professional sales really is, which is great. You mentioned, you know, there’s a lot of jobs available for people who go through these sales programs and the sales center at UNCW. What jobs, what types of industries and companies are your students in Wilmington transitioning to after graduation and going through your center?

[00:34:30] Matt Lastner: Yeah, a variety. Although a lot of the students have interest in tech and medical. That seems to be, it’s not coming from me necessarily, although I encourage it if that’s what they’re passionate about. I mean, I, I do try to tell students to figure out, you know, kind of what you’re passionate about, and pursue that first. If you love technology and that’s a natural fit. Some students are just gravitating towards a medical device or pharmaceuticals. So we talk about, well, how to get our foot in the door, how to pursue opportunities there. There are a lot of companies that won’t hire students straight out of the university, for medical device as an example. And we talk about, “Well, okay, what’s if you’re hell-bent on selling medical device at some point in your career, what types of jobs should you look at in the interim that might prepare you for opportunities in medical device eventually?” But it really seems like there’s are the areas, tech and medical that they are most interested in. So, we try to find opportunities and create networks for them so that they can begin to explore careers in those areas. But, we also have students taking jobs in other fields as well. 

[00:35:36] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s great. Okay Matt, we’re going to transition. We’re going to ask you just some fun questions. Answer the first thing that comes to your mind. What is your proudest kind of atypical accomplishment? Is there something that you’re really proud of in your life, or in your career that maybe people wouldn’t know when they, they know you?

[00:35:57] Matt Lastner: I’ll go with a really fun one. This is, I happen to see the trophey the other day. One of my fondest memories early in my career. You gotta have fun on the job, right? So we started a kickball team when I was working at Ryan Homes. It was like my second year there. I love the people I worked with. I’m good friends with them to this day. Even not all still work for the company, obviously. And we got a kickball team together, and we won the County Championship for Recreational Co-Rec Kickball. Still got the trophy. So there were a lot of nights out celebrating after kickball victories, back in the day. You have to find ways to have that fun outlet after work. So, that I’ll say is my proudest accomplishment outside of work.

[00:36:34] Kristen Wisdorf: Ah, that is so, I’m glad you brought that up. And, I didn’t know the story obviously, before I asked it. But you do have to have fun at work, and the friends you meet in that kind of first job out of college really can make or break the job. And so, you are not just picking the job, and what you’re selling, you’re kind of picking your tribe and the group that you’ll be with. So that’s awesome. Okay. Let’s do another one. What is your biggest fear, non-serious funny fear? Is there something that scares you?

[00:37:04] Matt Lastner: Snakes. A 100% snakes. Yeah. My kids know this. The neighbor has a bunch of fake snakes and my daughter will borrow the fake snakes that the neighbor has and leave them around the house thinking that this is funny, but I do not like snakes. Yeah.

[00:37:17] Madisson DeLisle: I think there’s probably tons of people that or listening and feel the exact same way. My family also likes to put fake snakes around to try and catch each other when you’re not, 

[00:37:28] Matt Lastner: it’s aweful.. 

[00:37:29] Madisson DeLisle: touch like the remote or something and there’s a snake on it. Another kind of fun one. Obviously, as a child, you probably weren’t thinking to yourself, “Yeah, I can’t wait to grow up and be in sales or a sales professor.” What did you want to be? What was the first job or career that you thought you wanted when you were a kid?

[00:37:49] Matt Lastner: I promised my mom that I would be a professional baseball player and buy her a home in Hawaii. I’m not sure why that was like. Baseball I love. That was, you know, I was going to be a professional athlete and baseball is my first love, but I also promised that house in Hawaii. My mom tells me all the time, she’s still waiting on it.

[00:38:04] Kristen Wisdorf: I was gonna say, she’s still waiting for you.

[00:38:06] Matt Lastner: She’s still waiting. She’s going to be waiting a while. She’s going to be waiting a while. 

[00:38:10] Madisson DeLisle: That’s funny. You, from a small age, you’re trying to buy a house for mom and then went into real estate for a bit. Kind of perfect. 

[00:38:17] Matt Lastner: Mom was good at selling things too apparently. Because she was selling that idea hard when I was young. Well, maybe you should take care of mom and buy her a house in Hawaii. I made that promise. I have not lived up to it, but it was out there. 

[00:38:27] Kristen Wisdorf: That’s great. Okay. What is your super power? Or what is something that you think your world-class at?

[00:38:34] Matt Lastner: Pretty good at ping pong. Actually at the National Conference Sales Management, I did win the ping pong tournament that they had. I want to say this was 2016, beat every other professor and academic there. And I was out of practice, and several beers deep, and still held court. So, uh, I’m definitely out of practice now. I keep talking to my wife and saying, we need to get a ping pong table for the family just so I can get back in the game. 

[00:38:58] Kristen Wisdorf: Yes you do. In fact, we have one. I am in our Virginia office, and we have a ping pong table. And there’s literally like a medal that the SDRs pass around. They do competitions. And we even have in our California office, one of our managers Tom, he is like the reigning champ of the entire company. So pong and sales go well together.

[00:39:20] Matt Lastner: Yeah. The next time I’m up 95 home I have to

[00:39:24] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah. Stop in. 

[00:39:25] Matt Lastner: work was a ping pong. 

[00:39:26] Kristen Wisdorf: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that is amazing, Matt. Thank you so much for spending your day with us and chatting. It has been great getting to know you and learning about your career. I think it’s amazing that your students have a lot of life experience, and sales experience that they can draw on through you. So we appreciate it, and thanks for listening. 

[00:39:46] Matt Lastner: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.