Campus Series: Ryan Mullins – Dr. Sales
Award-winning author, Associate Professor in Marketing, and Executive Director of the Sales Innovation Program at Clemson University, Ryan Mullins, trains and prepares the next generation of expert sales professionals.
His impressive and extensive background provides students with a unique perspective and an educational leg up as they embark on their journey to a lucrative career in sales.
Professor Mullins stresses the importance of career planning, and encourages students to think about where they want the next five years to take them. Sales can be a rewarding and enriching professional path if students understand the importance of the long game. His various courses at Clemson motivate students to follow their instincts, consistently further their education, practice, and cultivate meaningful relationships.
Meet Dr. Mullins on this week’s episode of Tech Sales is for Hustlers: Campus Series. Tune in to learn more about how he and his team developed one of the most successful sales programs in the country.
Guest-At-A-Glance
Name: Ryan Mullins
What he does: Ryan is Associate Professor that teaches sales.
Company: Clemson
Noteworthy: Ryan is a former sales engineer who became a sales educator. He’s passionate about helping people to learn about sales and public speaking through specific processes and practices.
Where to find Ryan: LinkedIn
Key Insights
⚡Sales is a field for those who love thinking. Ryan is excited because the sales field has been thriving in the past few years, and he talks about all the new possibilities when it comes to thinking and learning about sales. “It’s a very exciting time for sales educators because a lot of us are experienced. We’ve tried a true sales process approach, a very systematic approach. And we’re starting to see there are just so many new, different ways of thinking about sales, whether you’re going into specialized roles or you’re complimenting it with digital approaches. I just think there are all these new different ways to think about how to assemble those things to be successful in a sales organization. So it’s a fun time to be in sales education for sure.”
⚡ Students should plan the future. While talking about his students and the advice he shares with them, Ryan points out that the most important thing for a young person, a student, is to really think about their future and goals. “What’s the work-life balance that you want, and maybe even think in phases? What’s the work-life balance you want for the first five years out? And what’s the work-life balance you want, longer-term out, and really starting to think about certain industries that are going to be very helpful towards that, and certain industries are absolutely not very conducive to that? That conversation starts to really get their wheels turning about; there’s going to be some industries, there are going to be very attracted to my attitude and the work-life balance that I want to have, long-term.”
⚡ Utilizing out-of-classroom knowledge. You can teach sales in various ways, both in and out of the classroom. Ryan explains how important it is to have different resources and approaches when it comes to learning. “We’ve been doing sales education here for over a decade. Our programmatic aspects have been for the last, […] we’re going on our third year. When I say programmatic, I mean we have industry partners that are committed to the classroom. We have a lot of experiential activities going on outside the classroom, networking events, competitions, skill development workshops, and things of that nature that are really complimenting the in-classroom part of the education.”
Episode Highlights
You can find your passion in unexpected places
“I’m probably like a lot of students at a lot of universities. I did not get much exposure to sales during my education. […] I had some stereotypical views about what selling was, and it didn’t really feel like that was an area I wanted to be involved with. My education was becoming an aerospace engineer. I went to work for Boeing for a while. […] I really felt like being more customer-facing was more natural for me. I ended up finding what, in a sense, as a technical sales role, it’s called performance liaison engineer.
My role was translating all of our wind tunnel designs and engineering texts into meaningful recommendations for our airline partners who wanted to make these big decisions, 30 million dollars, plane decisions, about what they should do with their airlines. I got hooked up with that side of the business. […] I ended up going back to school, and after a lot of thought really put my mind to doing a Ph.D. in marketing and specializing in sales. I did a Ph.D. in sales, education, and sales research and took the job here at Clemson, where I’ve been for about ten years now.”
Product development and relationships building
“We had one of the airlines from Asia, and I really saw how important relationship building was and how important it was to build trust with an entire group of people that were representing that airline. I really just became fascinated at how we were going through all of this, and I, as an engineer, had never thought that was work. I always thought it’s a product, product, product. If we make a better product, they’re going to come in and get it. […] It blew my mind, and I really had to start thinking about how business relationships were formed.
I was really intrigued by it and really interested in what it actually took to make a big deal. That happened, and I started to understand that product development was so important. It’s really just the table stakes. I felt like I started to see that the selling and the relationship building that was going on was what truly differentiated us from our competition at that time. That’s what got me hooked. I liked that there were aspects that were truly intangible, that I personally, or somebody at Salesforce could bring to the table, it actually made a difference in whether or not somebody purchased from us.”
Analytical approach to teaching and sales
“I love the process. I love thinking about how a system can be put together to help you sort through a lot of uncertainty and a lot of chaos. As an engineer, that’s what we do a lot. When I started finally investing myself in learning about sales and sales education, I started to see that there are a lot of systems to help us, sellers, to be more successful.
We have to always understand there are different factors, customer factors, market factors that can derail things. But we can actually predict, better predict our success if we can develop a sustainable, competitive system of competitive advantage. If we can find a way to systematically bring interested customers in, ask value-adding questions, and demonstrate effectively, we’re gonna have a good shot at being successful there.
At the same time, we’re getting to apply that kind of system and/in a very intangible way, build relationships with people. […] I really liked the variety of taking what we think about as a good selling process or good selling approach and throwing that out into the marketplace and seeing how we do.”
Providing value in every aspect of work and life
“We do a social selling competition every year in our program. Students are tasked with sending out a LinkedIn InMail message to some of our partners. The partners are going to judge them on how influential and curiosity generating those messages are to want to meet with that student. And they’re judged and graded on some criteria we believe help evaluate whether a message is not only relevant but value-adding for that recipient. […] Then, they use that to fully set up and schedule a meeting via a virtual platform to have a discovery call with that fictional role-play buyer.
[…] There has to be a lot of effort and thought behind what value comes out of a sales program like ours. I’ve probably been pushing the rock up the hill for a sales program at Clemson since I got here, which was ten years ago. I would say my biggest win from all these things is being able to share the idea about the value of the sales program to our university and getting buy-in. And we’re now seeing the success of that. Seeing students be successful, seeing the impact on all of our stakeholders, whether here at the university or companies working with us. I just think it’s been a great long road, but it’s been a great experience. I have really been very grateful for the success that we had.”
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Ryan Mullins: [00:00:00] Okay.
[00:00:05] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:00:05] 3, 2, 1. Welcome back, hustlers, to another episode of the Tech Sales is for Hustlers special Campus Series. I’m Kristen Wisdorf.
[00:00:18] Libby Galatis: [00:00:18] And I’m Libby Galatis. And today we are so excited to have Ryan Mullins from Clinton University with us. Hi, Ryan. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:28] Ryan Mullins: [00:00:28] Hey, Libby. Hey, Kristen. Great to be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:36] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:00:36] Well, Ryan, we like to start every one of our episodes with the same question. It’s actually the question we ask all of our students who interview with us, which honestly, if they listen to this podcast, they could just nail their interviews with memoryBlue just by listening to these, but take sixty seconds, Ryan.
[00:00:52] And just tell us a little bit about you. Give us your highlight reel. [00:01:00] Oh no. Was that his?
[00:01:11] Libby Galatis: [00:01:11] He was lagging really hard. So.
[00:01:14] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:01:14] I’m like closing all my tabs. Like, why is that going?
[00:01:18] So sixty-second highlight reel. Tell us about yourself.
[00:01:22] Ryan Mullins: [00:01:22] Sure. So in sixty seconds I’ll do the best I can to capture what I’m all about. I’d say I’m a former sales engineer, turned sales educator. So I’m really passionate about helping people that formerly may not have thought sales was cut out for them, or public speaking for that matter, and help them understand that it’s really about practice and process, to understand that selling is really about the sharing of ideas, and that if you can do that effectively, you can be really successful in almost any, any venture you put your mind to. So, I’m really excited about that side, and then from a personal standpoint, I am a husband and father [00:02:00] of three. I essentially have an adopted son and twins at home, which basically culminated about triplets that we had in 2016.
[00:02:07] So I’ve basically got triple kiddos that are all about five years old, in my house, in the house right now. So, that’s my highlight reel. It definitely keeps me busy when I’m not, and so is education.
[00:02:21] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:02:21] Wow. Okay. There’s a lot to unpack here. I’m very excited about this. Let’s start at the beginning. Where did you grow up and what was, I guess your first taste of sales? Was it one of those things you fell into after college, we’re you, kind of, always, was sales, always part of your life growing up?
[00:02:44] Ryan Mullins: [00:02:44] Yeah. So I’d say, I’m probably like a lot of students at a lot of universities that I did not get much exposure to sales during my education. I really had, I definitely fall into the camp. I had some stereotypical views about what selling was. And it didn’t really feel like that was an area I [00:03:00] wanted to be involved with.
[00:03:00] So, my education was in becoming a, an engineer and an aerospace engineer. And went to work for Boeing for a while. But in, kind of, navigating my career there, I really felt like being more customer facing was more natural for me. So, I ended up finding what, in a sense, as a technical sales role, it’s called performance liaison engineer.
[00:03:21] But really, my role was translating all of our wind tunnel designs, and engineering texts into meaningful recommendations for our airline partners who wanted to make this big decisions, $30 million a plane decisions, about what they should do with their, with their airlines. And I got hooked up with that side of the business, and wanting to really understand how I could get better and have more of my role facing.
[00:03:46] And so ended up going back to school, and after a lot of thought really put my mind to doing a PhD in marketing and specializing in sales. So I did a PhD in sales, education and [00:04:00] sales research, and took the job here at Clemson where I’ve been for about ten years now.
[00:04:10] Libby Galatis: [00:04:10] Wow. I mean, there’s, that is just such a non-traditional background, I feel, for so many sales professionals to start off in aerospace engineering. I guess, let’s start from there. Why did you decide to pursue that as a career and, and as your point A? What pointed you to that to begin?
[00:04:27] Ryan Mullins: [00:04:27] What I think, I really liked the idea of, I mean, I’m, I’m kind of a really, I’m a free analytical thinker, which I’ll get to why that applies in sales maybe in a little bit, but from, you know, when I was in school, I was really analytical thinker and really interested in how I could get the client to sign.
[00:04:43] It really just came down I wanted to do something interesting and I thought I was really interested in space. I, I had aspirations to be a NASA, astronaut in NASA for a while. And, at the time I thought it was going to take too much school to get there, lo and behold, how silly, how silly was I now?
[00:05:00] [00:04:59] And, but decided to pursue that, to pursue that, and then fell into, kind of the interest area, being interested in planes, explaining the bill of that. I just really liked the idea of, of flights and how fascinating that was. And, that’s really what drew me in, and I think ultimately will, that’s a change was, just being able to desk driven for my liking.
[00:05:19] So, I really liked the idea of that space, but there weren’t a lot of opportunities for me at the time to do what I wanted to do, and more customer facing role.
[00:05:30] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:05:30] So, it looks like you grew up in Texas, is that right? And you went to A&M.
[00:05:34] Ryan Mullins: [00:05:34] That’s right.
[00:05:35] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:05:35] All right. Well that makes sense why NASA was something that you maybe aspire to when you were younger, being close to Houston, obviously. So, what was the moment you were like, “Okay, this is a little bit too desk driven. I like the, you know, people, human interaction,”
[00:05:51] what was that moment where you’re, like, “It’s time to make a shift,” like, was there a specific story, example, instance?
[00:06:00] [00:06:00] Ryan Mullins: [00:06:00] Yeah. So I, I, I go back to so technical sales in that field is a little bit different, and because of the customer to see so few and far between and when you’re actually meeting with a customer, it’s a huge deal. And we had one of the airlines in from Asia, and just, I really saw how, how important relationship building was, and how important it was to build trust with an entire group of people that were representing that airline.
[00:06:32] And I really just became fascinated at how we were going through all of, and I, as an engineer, I had never thought that was important. I always thought it’s product, product, product. If we make a better product, they’re going to come in droves and come get it. And we were going through and jumping through all these hoops. So be respectful, and, be, build relationship with them, and also do a lot of the same customs that they were used to.
[00:06:57] And it really, it blew my mind. And I really had to [00:07:00] start thinking about how business relationships were formed. And I was really intrigued by it, and really interested in what it actually took to make a big deal like that happened, and really started to understand that the product development was so important, it’s really just the table stakes.
[00:07:20] And that, I felt like I started to see that the selling and the relationship building that was going on was what truly differentiated us from our competition at that time. And that’s what really, kind of, got me hooked was I liked the aspect that, I liked, that there were aspects that were truly intangible, that I personally, or somebody at Salesforce could bring to the table, it actionated a difference in whether or not somebody purchased from us.
[00:07:49] And, once I got hooked on that, I was looking for opportunities in that. And unfortunately, at the time they were really not attract for that. There really wasn’t, even, I think still to this [00:08:00] at that time, this was early 2000s, it wasn’t just a lot of understanding about how to get engineers into selling roles, and what kind of value that could bring.
[00:08:10] And, so I really felt a little trapped at the time. And that’s what caused me to think about leaving and going and, kind of, basically doing a career shift through my MBA. That’s what kind of led to that MBA. Didn’t really see any career opportunities that were commercial facing given my current education level and the tracks that were there.
[00:08:27] So, that’s, kind of, how that led to pursue in different type of education and taking a different track.
[00:08:37] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:08:37] Well that’s interesting that you knew what you liked about the role, and that you liked relationship building, and you were willing to make that big adjustment in your life to go get that. It’s interesting. You said earlier that you are analytical, and then you also say that you like the relationship building, and most [00:09:00] salespeople don’t like both things or they don’t connect the two of those.
[00:09:05] So, how do both of those things work for you in this career in sales and sales education?
[00:09:11] Ryan Mullins: [00:09:11] Yeah. So that’s, I love your question. I think it’s absolutely something I’m really passionate about. So from analytical standpoint I love process. Right. I love thinking about how a system can be put together to help you, kind of, sort through a lot of uncertainty and a lot of chaos. Right. As an engineer, that’s what we do a lot.
[00:09:29] And, when I started finally, you know, really investing myself into learning about sales and sales education, I started to see that there really are a lot of systems, right, to help us as sellers be more successful. Now, we have to always understand there’s different factors, customer factors, market factors that can derail things, but we can actually predict, better predict our success if we can develop a sustainable, competitive, system of competitive advantage. Right. If we can find a way to [00:10:00] systematically bring interested customers in, ask value adding questions, demonstrate effectively, we’re gonna really have a good shot, right, at being, at being successful there. And, at the same time, we’re getting to apply that kind of system in very intangible way of build relationships with people which, yeah, I think for me, I may be the atypical type of engineer where I really liked the variety of taking, you know, what we’re thinking about, what we think about as a good selling process or good selling approach and throwing that out into the marketplace and seeing how we, how we’re going to, how we do. Right.
[00:10:37] And, and what’s, what’s all awesome to me is, it also challenging in the field that we’re in, is that, “What works this year?” And some of the recommendations that I can say at group working great right now aren’t going to work next year. And that’s so true the last couple of years. Right. So I, I love the variety of it.
[00:10:55] I love kind of the, being able to come back and reevaluate the [00:11:00] type of systematic approach, you know, we’ve put together and teach in school here at Clemson and a lot of other sales programs across the country. I think you’ll find, it’s a very exciting time for sales educators, because a lot of us have experiences, kind of, tried and true sales process approach, very systematic approach and starting to see there’s just so many new, different ways of thinking about sales, whether you’re going into specialized roles or you’re complimenting it with digital approaches. I just think there’s all these new different ways to be thinking about how to assemble those things to be successful in a sales organization. So it’s fun time to be in sales education for sure.
[00:11:42] Libby Galatis: [00:11:42] Absolutely. And I’m obviously a bit biased. My past recruiting experience is almost exclusively with universities and I think it’s awesome that so many programs are being built. And, it’s amazing to be able to pick your brain with the background that you have. You know, taking a step back, you’ve mentioned, very briefly, that you did [00:12:00] have some misconceptions about sales prior to getting that exposure. Walk us through your initial impression and what experience, you know, shifted that impression for you.
[00:12:12] Ryan Mullins: [00:12:12] So, um, I’ll say my initial impression, really. I, for some reason, I always go back to that kiosk salesperson from the mall that you see. Right. In there, they’re, kind of, got a shot, you’re looking at, your side-eyeing with them, their side-eyeing with you, and they’re kind of, you know, taking those small steps towards them and then they, kind of, trap you with the question. Right. It trapped me with the question that the yes or no, usually in there trying to, you can just feel the tension if they’re trying to bring you into a conversation. And that was my kind of impression, was like, I felt like sales was just a full system of tactics to just manipulate you into purchasing something or being involved in something that you weren’t necessarily all that interested in being involved with.
[00:12:53] Right. And, I think ,as my education involved, from my [00:13:00] time as, as, as, as, as a sales engineer to teaching, learning about sales education, teaching that in undergraduate institution. When I was doing my PhD, I really just started seeing, and especially when we had sales leaders come in, and we interact with them and teaching the classroom, you really, I really just started to see that, that that was really not, I think, that’s really not the approach that’s being taught. It’s not, it’s not successful, I guess, is what I really started to learn, like, that, that is not a long-term strategy. And just starting to see a lot of the sales leaders talk about helping, solving, coaching, teaching, and he starts it.
[00:13:40] I really started to hear the type of verbiage that sales leaders were teaching to their salespeople. And, a lot of my students is, as they were coming out of their, their, our sales program, and we start, you really start to see what the focus should be on. It should be on helping, teaching, [00:14:00] coaching, solving problems.
[00:14:02] And, I really just started to see how I feel like as of now I, kind of, learned it. Really, there’s a bit of a noble profession that sales truly encapsulates because we have an opportunity to go out and, you know, anyone from Fortune 500 to a small business owner help their business run better. If we can help, help educate, help identify, or can work through some really complex challenges sometimes.
[00:14:25] ‘Cause I think that’s ,was the shift for me is, really starting to see. And part of that is just thinking outside of just the small manipulatives, sometimes, sometimes the B to C type of interactions. And really thinking more broadly about a lot of interactions that as a, as just your regular retail consumer, you normally wouldn’t have eyes on.
[00:14:48] Right. So that was a big change for me.
[00:14:54] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:14:54] So, you have this technical sales experience with a heavy [00:15:00] hitter in the industry, Boeing. It sounds like you worked internationally as well, when you were in that role. How do you take that? And now your years of, you know, educating, how do you help your students find the right job for them? Because they’re, I mean, we’re obviously in high tech sales, so we’re, we’re biased, but there’s so many different careers and things that your students can sell and industries that can go into.
[00:15:24] There’s a lot of options, now more than ever. How do you help them figure out the right one for them?
[00:15:30] Ryan Mullins: [00:15:30] So, I love this question. It’s something we talk about a lot, here, at the food sales program. And the advice I always start at with students on is really starting to think about what, first of all, “What’s, what’s the work-life balance that you want?” You know, and, and maybe even think in phases, “What’s the work-life balance you want first five years out? And what’s the work-life balance you want, you know, longer term out.” And really starting to think about, okay, certain industries are going to be very helpful towards that, and certain [00:16:00] industries are absolutely not very conducive to that. Right. That conversation starts to really get their wheels turning about there’s going to be some industries, there are going to be very attracted to my attitude and my work-life balance that I want to have, long-term. And, they start to think about, well, so like technology, right, very, very fast pace. Sometimes volatile, very, a lot, a lot of, and a lot of technology roles are fairly specialized. So I think thinking about, “Okay, that’s the type of roles environment I’d be if I want to go into tech sales, is that right for me? Maybe it is. Maybe it’s not.” We’re going to do some exercises in class that start to simulate some of that. And you can start to decide, “Is that the type of pace, type of work environment I want to be in?” Or are you maybe somebody that’s a little bit, you want a slower pace, a little bit more predictability, longer sales cycle.
[00:16:51] So, you know, you think about maybe capital equipment for hospitals and, and, and other healthcare facilities. Right. You’re talking about major purchases, probably purchases [00:17:00] that are going to take months if not years, to come to fruition. And, so, that’s going to be a very different type of selling process, very different type of relationship building.
[00:17:09] But also a different type of work-life balance. Right. You’ve got a lot more predictability, in that type of a role from a nine-to-five standpoint. You’ve got a lot more predictability in terms of, you know, you’re probably going to have fewer number of customers in your account list. And so, getting them to start to think through some of those types of preferences, I find to be really helpful to get them to think about, “Well, that sounds way more to my liking than, you got to say, this fast paced or vice versa.” I firmly believe like there, there are so many types of selling out there, that there’s something for everybody. And I think it really just, I think we can do a lot of students. It’s a service, if we can just help educate them about all these different types and about the pros and cons of the various, you know, kind of, working environments and what, what would work for different, these different preferences. [00:18:00] So, I try to start with that. I think that usually gets a conversation going, and then we can start to, start to lock in on opportunities, what the opportunities look like, what’s going to be a good opportunity in that space that’s going to meet, meet their end goals for work-life balance. Because at the end of the day, sales can be really rewarding and really enriching if, if you’re in the right space, but it can also be a, really, a career that can burn you out if you’re not thinking through what that role is going to mean for you in next year or five years or whatever that’s going to be.
[00:18:37] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:18:37] Yeah, that’s such a good point. I think people are, especially students. I was in that boat. I was so worried about what I would be doing my job after graduation that I didn’t necessarily think, “Well, what do I want my career, my sales career, to look like five years from now, ten years from now?” And, knowing that what you do right after college is going to help you get to that point.
[00:18:58] So they need to kind of [00:19:00] think bigger picture, which can be really hard to do when you are worried about graduation, and you know, you’re gonna be on your own for the first time. So, let’s talk a little bit more about your students and what types of things you’re doing to help prep them. So you’ve been running the sales program for going on three years, it looks like. How has it changed just in that time between the types of jobs that your students are interested in, the locations they’re interested in going, and what you’re teaching them to prepare them? That’s a loaded question.
[00:19:33] Ryan Mullins: [00:19:33] Well, it’s also a loaded question ’cause you’re probably picking the most volatile three-year window, you know, then you could possibly choose for me to think about. So, it’s going to give you a bigger picture. We’ve been, so we’ve been doing sales education here for over a decade. Our programmatic aspects has been for the last right, you’re, you’re, we’re going on our third year. And when I say programmatic, I mean, we have industry partners that are committed to the classroom. We have a lot of experiential activities going on outside the [00:20:00] classroom, like networking events, competitions, skill development workshops, and things of, the things of that nature that are really, kind of, complimenting the in-classroom part of the education.
[00:20:10] But I think the things that I’m seeing, at least for the past couple of years, that are really interesting, I mean, I’ll just hit, I’ll just do the elephant in the room first, is the ability to have an engaging Zoom call has been something on the forefront of our education that we’d have to get across to our students right now.
[00:20:27] I mean, it is, it’s a different type of skillset to teach somebody to be engaging with the little blue dot that’s up at the top of my screen, and understand how, I’m not just speaking from my experience, how much actually more energy it takes than it would in an in-person interaction.
[00:20:43] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:20:43] It does. It’s exhausting.
[00:20:46] Ryan Mullins: [00:20:46] Absolutely, right.
[00:20:47] And so, you know, that’s been a big change, I think, in getting students to understand that, it, I even think it after apart more preparation and more engagement, when I say engagement it’s just really [00:21:00] energetic output, you know, during the sales call to be able to do that. I think the other big, another big evolution we’re seeing is just the digital selling space.
[00:21:08] I mean, we’ve got students, we’ve got to have students prep prepared to leverage LinkedIn, they’ve got to, they’ve got to leverage all social media channels. They’ve got to leverage digital content that’s changing. Who knows how fast or how much volume their marketing departments, you know, put out for that.
[00:21:23] Keep up with that. They’ve gotta be able to use analytics. And we’ve gotta be able to understand, at least at a very minimal level, artificial intelligence and what that means for their selling process going forward. These are some of the fundamentals that I think are gonna be, you know, become principals here in the next five years. That our students are, a lot of times getting their first exposure in our classes, and I think as we continue to grow with that, we’re going to have, we’re integrating more and more of those digital pieces, those analytics pieces into curriculum. So the students understand that the [00:22:00] one, the digital side and the digital channel is going to be super poor. It’s not replacing, it’s a compliment to what they were doing before.
[00:22:07] And at the analytics piece, again, it’s, it’s something that’s going to give them a leg up and help them be more efficient, more effective with their time if they’re doing it right and understand it. So those are, I would say some of the three or four big evolutions that I’m seeing in terms of what industry is, kind of, bringing to bear on, on what we’re teaching in the classroom.
[00:22:28] Libby Galatis: [00:22:28] I think, it’s, it’s just amazing how getting in front of students and educating them on the value and the opportunity, and how transferable the skills are and how essential they are to so many different, you know, career paths that they could potentially move into. It all applies. So I’m curious, when you’re in the classroom with your students and I don’t know you know, how many different courses or levels of courses you’re teaching or your staff is teaching, but I’m curious of, of specific activities that you use with your students or have your [00:23:00] students do to push them out of their comfort zone and give them that real world experience. Can you walk us through some of those maybe assignments or in classroom experiences where you see those light bulbs start to come off?
[00:23:10] Ryan Mullins: [00:23:10] Absolutely. So I’ll give you, I got two good real-world examples. The one, we do a competition. We do a social selling competition every year in our program where students actually are tasked with sending out a LinkedIn InMail message to some of our partners and the partners are going to judge them on how influential and curiosity generating those messages are to want to go have a meet with that student. And they’re judged and graded on some, some criteria that, we believe, help evaluate whether a message is very, not only relevant, but value- adding for that recipient. They’re just on that. And then they use that to set up fully set up and schedule a meeting via a virtual platform, to have a discovery call with that fictional role-play buyer.
[00:23:55] And so, they essentially, in this last year, we did that with artificial intelligence platform that [00:24:00] the students had to learn and understand how to sell that. And so, they were able to really mimic the process of how they would network connect instead of a meeting and execute it with a real prospect using visual chann, fully visual channels.
[00:24:11] So it was a great exercise for us. I think the students had some “Aha” moments in terms of just starting to understand, well, you know, “If I’m going to attract somebody’s attention in a very short message in LinkedIn, how am I going to do that?” Because it’s, you know, they start to really investigate it and they realize it’s very noisy. Right?
[00:24:30] They start to, start to really understand that it requires some deep planning, some deep research about what would be relevant to this, this person I’m trying to get up. Take that forward to the second activity I want to talk about. And, we, kind of, build on those types of exercises to, what I consider to be a really great exercise, where we ask students to sell tickets to a sales conference that we held here virtually last spring.
[00:24:56] So, essentially we gave students a list of [00:25:00] potential prospects and gave them a quote. Tickets that they needed to sell for part of their grade. And we said, “Go forth and prosper to that using all the tools that you’ve learned throughout our sales program.” So, clearly LinkedIn play hateful as a very great tool for them, but they had to go through the whole sales process.
[00:25:17] They had to message, connect, set up meetings, set up calls, execute and convey the value proposition of attending, of registering and attending for the sales, and, and then closing, closing the deal for their, for their, for their course. And, so I think it’s 450 bucks a piece, so it wasn’t trivial. I wasn’t a trivial sales, it’s something you actually needed to provide a little value and entice our attendees to come.
[00:25:39] And we had, we had great success with it. Our students ended up selling about $25,000 worth of tickets. We held the top, that sales conference, at the end of last spring with some academic and practitioners speaking. We had a whole, whole lot of fun with it. And, I think from Libby, your, your question about aham, “Aha” moment.
[00:25:55] It was that first, you know, we give that assignment as a semester long project [00:26:00] that first three weeks that they’re starting to do that outreach and nobody, nobody reaches back. Right. And they’re, kind of, sitting there, they come to me and like, “Nobody reached back out to me. What do I do now?” I said, “Well, you know, this is, this is part of the process, you need to, you know, potentially think about your cadence. Should you call this person, maybe follow up with an email. What’s, what do you feel like is going to be the right way to get a hold of this person and present your value.” And, to really starting to see what, how tough it is, right, to, to not only, it’s not, you’re not always going to get in front of the page.
[00:26:38] Yea, we want to get in front of a person. Well, we have to earn that first. And, sometimes it’s, sometimes our message is not good and sometimes it’s not our fault. Sometimes it’s just bad timing. And so, to stay, I think the big “Aha” moment for them, that, is to stay resilient in that, and it keep after it, and follow their process, follow what they know that they’re going to have to do more than one touch point [00:27:00] with their prospects to be successful.
[00:27:02] And, you start to, kind of, start to see that there is that understanding that the grind is very important. If they’re going to have to put some effort in for that, those, those numbers and all those relationships to work out for them to be successful. So, I love that activity and assignment for them because I feel like it sets them up to have great expectations but also build on, building their own self-confidence that they can do something really difficult even though, I don’t want to even say it, they’re just undergrads, but they can do really difficult sales challenges, even when they haven’t graduated yet.
[00:27:38] Libby Galatis: [00:27:38] I love. First of all, I love it when classrooms and professors and educators are really pushing their students to try and dive head first into it and just give it a shot. Because, in my experience, consulting with recent grads or undergraduates and helping them navigate towards finding what they want, the only way that you can really know with confidence, if something is, you know, a fit for [00:28:00] you is something you would truly enjoy is if you commit and you just try it out.
[00:28:03] So I, I think that that experience is amazing. And, you know, looking over your LinkedIn and your background, I noticed that while you were getting your MBA, you were a marketing coordinator with Texas A&M. And, the activity you’re describing sounds really similar to what you were doing in that role, increasing ticket sales to major sporting events there.
[00:28:20] And I think it’s important for our listeners and for undergrads and even post-graduate students that have these marketing backgrounds, and maybe their goals are towards marketing roles, to understand how those two departments go hand in hand and how, even if you are in that marketing role, you’re going to have to have the sales skills to back it up.
[00:28:39] So I was wondering if you could dive a little bit, you know, take a step back and walk us through your experience in that role and maybe how it challenged you, or what was the most challenging experience when you were in that marketing coordinator position?
[00:28:51] Ryan Mullins: [00:28:51] Oh, man. Gosh. That’s, I, I’m so glad you’re going back to that experience. I haven’t thought about it in a long time. So, one of my, so I had a, [00:29:00] it was a great experience. And one of the challenging things about that, that I’ll go back to was, I was actually tasked, I was the lead for promotions and helping support ticket sales for women’s basketball, and which is, is a great sport.
[00:29:13] It’s a really hard sport to promote and get fans in that sport, unfortunately. And we actually, at the time, had one of the top five, top ten teams. But it was, it was still very challenging. So, I got my first taste at ha, you know, really being tasked with promoting, getting fan engagement, try, fulfilling execution of a promotion and certainly ticket sales at some events that we consider them to be great value, but we’re, you know, for a lot of fans, not an interest to them.
[00:29:44] And, so, that really was, was a, an eye-opening experience for me, to think about, “How do we get creative? And how do we really think about what, what is the value of this, of this type of event to different types of audiences?” And what [00:30:00] was really interesting, I think one big “Aha” for us, and that environment was that, that that environment was really more of a family friendly type of valley which may have been different than your typical college sporting events, say, like a men’s basketball or football, for example. I think for women’s, for that women’s basketball, it really came to be something where it was, you know, really low costs, right. Tickets weren’t too expensive, and we made the promotions, in-game events, you know, really engaging and fun and kind, and, you know, family inclusive. So that, it was, it was a different type of experience than we might have done at say, I don’t know, men’s basketball or even, say, soccer, that’s something that would have different challenges of being outside. So I, so I love the experience because it did teach me a lot. It’s about having to be creative about marketing, having to be creative about who your target segments are, and really thinking through that process and how we’re going to, kind of, meet those needs and get interest from those different segments.
[00:30:57] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:30:57] So, we interviewed a ton of marketing [00:31:00] majors who ended up in sales. I’m a market, or I was a marketing major who ended up in sales. I imagine some of the folks in your program also are start as marketing majors or currently are. And you have, you know, obviously, your degree and experience in marketing.
[00:31:16] How do you talk to students about blending the two and why, you know, joining the sales program is going to help them in the long run, other than your personal experience, like what you had at A&M?
[00:31:27] Ryan Mullins: [00:31:27] So I, I think the, the thing that I emphasize with my students is that they have to understand that customer first and foremost if they’re going to be successful in either marketing or sales. And that, and so, but I suggest that even if you want to go into marketing, sales is probably the fastest way you’re going to understand, the most effective way you’re going to understand your customer. What they are frustrated with, what they prioritize, where the trend, you know, what things are changing in their business, [00:32:00] what the competitors are doing. Not that marketing doesn’t know these things, but I find that sales typically knows them faster.
[00:32:07] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:32:07] Puts on the ground, talking to customers, potential customers. Yeah.
[00:32:10] Ryan Mullins: [00:32:10] And so, you’re, and you’re absolutely right. We probably get, I would say a large majority, I mean, 75% of our program students right now are marketing focused majors. Right. And a lot of them, and even a lot of them think initially like, “Oh, I’m going to, I’m going to be a marketer. I’m going to be in social, or I’m going to be in brand management, or I’m going to be, maybe, a market researcher.”
[00:32:33] And, I think all those are wonderful paths to choose, but I always say to them that I think you could do yourself such a great service if you will go into sales first so that you truly understand what customers need. I even just go on to say like understanding what customers want versus what they need.
[00:32:56] There’s a lot of times we may have an understanding, we may [00:33:00] talk to customers, survey customers, understand that they may want some things, but there may be some things they actually need that they don’t know about yet. And really, sales is a great outcome avenue to help them self-educate, teach, discover how to overcome some of those challenges may not thought a whole lot about.
[00:33:15] So, that’s where I try to blend itself in. I think both are, both are important. Both are needed for organization be successful. Even though sometimes those, those functions are not, don’t get along very well, there are very, all kinds of various reasons. But I, I like to, I like to think that being in a sales role and befriending your marketer probably the best way to go.
[00:33:39] Especially if you, even if you want to, if you do desire to go into a marketing role or up in your organization, I think, you’re going to be wildly more successful if you know your customer and know your market, and work your way up from there.
[00:33:55] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:33:55] Okay. So, just answer the first thing that comes to your mind for the next couple of [00:34:00] questions. When you think about your career, Yeah, so, sales educator, you’re you know, working for the athletics department and your job at Boeing, all of your sales, sales adjacent roles, what do you consider your greatest win so far?
[00:34:18] Ryan Mullins: [00:34:18] My greatest win. I think, my greatest win would be getting support for the importance at sales program here. I think that sales programs are certainly not in every university. There’s a lot of institutions out there that maybe don’t see the importance of sales education at the university level.
[00:34:40] And, so, I think at any school that wants to get a sales program, there has to be a lot of effort and thought behind what value it comes out of a sales program like ours. And so, like I said, we haven’t always had sales program. And so, I would say, yeah, I’ve been, you’ve asked my colleagues who just, we just do it for that this [00:35:00] earlier today, I’ve probably been pushing the rock up the hill for a sales program at Clemson since I got here, which was 10 years ago. And, I, so I would say my biggest win from, you know, all these things can buy us, being able to share the idea about the value of the sales program to our university, and getting buy-in, and now seeing the success of that. And seeing students be successful, seeing impact that has on all of our stakeholders whether it be here at the university or, you know, at companies that are working with us. I just think it’s, it’s been a great, the long road, but it’s been a great, you know, great experience that’s I really been very grateful for the success that we’ve had.
[00:35:43] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:35:43] I think that’s a great takeaway for people listening to the podcast. You know, I asked about, so far in your career, your best win, and you listed something, or you said something that you worked on for ten years, like, since you got there. And I, that’s so [00:36:00] ,like, appropriate because whether you’re in that, like, really fast paced sales environment or that you know, sales environment where maybe you have just a select few of accounts that take a long time to sell, like, it takes persistence, and sometimes the best things happen over time. And, for students looking for that job right out of college, like, think about the long game, think about putting yourself in a position to, to really, like, invest in your career long-term and also from the actual sales perspective. Not every sale is going to happen right away, just because you have the best messaging and you put the work in on the onset, it might take you a long time to get that deal done. And so, how appropriate for everyone listening?
[00:36:43] Ryan Mullins: [00:36:43] Well, thank you. It’s, I think I, I certainly didn’t do it alone, but I would consider it a group went for us for sure.
[00:36:52] Libby Galatis: [00:36:52] So when you’re teaching your students, you’re preparing them for that first job post-grad, or helping [00:37:00] them to find, you want to, you know, seek out to get your MBA after this, what’s going on? So let’s say, you are consulting your students on navigating their job search, that first step after they graduate. What are some suggestions or questions, maybe the top two or three most important things that you want your students to focus on when they’re considering their options, and they have them in front of them?
[00:37:23] Ryan Mullins: [00:37:23] Okay. I would say the two things that I always bring up are 1. What does the, what does the educational experience look like for the next one, two years? Is that going to be very short term or is that something that has to trajectory that. Continue to have touch points where they’re continuing to invest in you and help you with your development.
[00:37:43] I, so I, I really try to get them to find places that are very clear and have a really good plan in place about how they’re going to develop them. At least for those first two years. You know? ‘Cause I think there’s, there’s some sales organizations that don’t have that [00:38:00] plan in place. And then you see, and I think that’s when you see students be very excited and then they just flounder, and they get a little lost and they just don’t know where to turn. So there’s that piece. That’s more of the training organizational piece. And the other side of the piece is, do you know your hiring manager, and do you get along with your hiring, do you get, do you feel like you fit with the hiring manager?
[00:38:22] Because at the end of the day, the hiring, the person that they’re going to be evaluated by, coached by, probably learn culture, learnt it by, it’s going to be that, that first line manager. So I really encourage them to find and connect with that person when they can. That’s not always possible.
[00:38:37] But to truly understand is that person is somebody that you feel like would be a good coach for you as, as you’re coming out into your first couple of years. Because those first two years are pivotal, pivotal coaching years to just start, not affirm what you’re doing right, so that you’re not floundering, but also continue to get that really precise feedback about what is [00:39:00] the area I can improve on the next week, right, that will help me get incrementally better. And then the next week, and the next week. And so, those are the two pieces I said, I really would harp on a lot to, to, to identify if when, and if possible, because I just feel like those are the two. If I’m, if I’m looking at why someone would not work out, in most sales organizations it’s usually either because their manager is not coaching them very well, or they, they felt like they, they don’t know what they’re doing because they weren’t, they’re not getting the right development and they’re not being able to succeed in the role.
[00:39:35] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:39:35] I would agree. And it’s interesting that the first two things you said were about the, the candidate or the student’s development. Right. And then putting themself in a position for a long, healthy, happy career. Like, you didn’t say base salary, you didn’t say what they were selling. Right. And it’s like, those are the things that I think, myself included, you get really excited by when you’re a [00:40:00] student.
[00:40:00] But yeah, that that perspective is important.
[00:40:03] Ryan Mullins: [00:40:03] I would say, “If you’re good, they will come. Don’t worry.”
[00:40:07] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:40:07] Absolutely.
[00:40:10] Libby Galatis: [00:40:10] A hundred percent. All right. And I have a question. If you could have a billboard anywhere in the world, where would you put it and what would it say?
[00:40:20] Ryan Mullins: [00:40:20] Oh, wow. Wow. That is, that’s an interesting question. I can put it anywhere in the world. Okay. Wow.
[00:40:33] So. Times Square would be fun, right. If I want to get some attention, that’s that, let’s, let’s say Times Square. What would I want, what would I want to say on my billboard in Times Square? Oh, man. So I’ll do, I’ll take two paths here. One, I, I, you know, I’m an Aggie at heart, so I’ll say, you know, I’ll do it, I’ll do one add on, from, you know, saying Aggie football for national champions next year. Maybe I’ll do that one [00:41:00] first. But, probably from a work stand.
[00:41:04] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:41:04] Obviously.
[00:41:05] Ryan Mullins: [00:41:05] Then. So, for my biggest, from, you know, a life standpoint, you know, I’ll get, I’ll get personal with this one because I feel like, I feel like this is an opportunity to be very personal, but I’m a big, I’m a big proponent of, of adoption. I have an adopted son, and it’s been one of the greatest experiences of my life. And it’s something that, like a lot of things in life, I was, kind of, apprehensive about before, but what about it? And so, I probably do a billboard to promote the amazing opportunity of adopting child. I feel like, that’s really, I’m really passionate and it’s really important to me. And that’s not necessarily work-related, but that’s.
[00:41:39] Kristen Wisdorf: [00:41:39] I think that’s what makes us good at work is all the stuff that happens outside of work too. So that’s great. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. We’re so happy. We got you on the podcast, and really excited about what you’re doing at Clemson. That you’re like really building the program, and happy that, that ten years of [00:42:00] work has paid off for you and your students.
[00:42:01] Thanks for joining us, Ryan.