Episode 46: Kurtis Michela – Never Stop Learning
Don’t tell Kurtis Michela the age-old adage, “You can never go home again.” His successful career proves precisely the opposite, in fact.
Despite the possibility of joining the family office furniture business early on, Kurtis forged his own path when he launched a sales career with memoryBlue. That journey took him from coast to coast and exposed him to a wide variety of companies, products, and, in the end, a rock-solid professional footing.
And those important experiences uniquely prepared him to ultimately take on the challenge of that family business and help lift it to new levels of success.
On this episode of Tech Sales is for Hustlers, you’ll hear Kurtis explain the important message he would tell himself as he started at memoryBlue, how a snack company transformed his sales abilities, and why playing the long game and betting on yourself is always the right move.
Guest-At-A-Glance
Name: Kurtis Michela
What he does: Kurtis is dedicated to the family business of office furniture sales.
Noteworthy: Kurtis has a prolific career. He pursued a tech sales career, moved from DC to LA, and worked for a variety of companies. He spent almost two years in SnackNation and then moved back to DC to focus on the family business in the office furniture industry. He’s the only memoryBlue alumnus with a corporate showroom in downtown DC, one block from the White House.
Exit Year from memoryBlue: 2013
Months at memoryBlue: 7
Alumni Path: Hired Out
Where to find Kurtis: LinkedIn
Key Insights
⚡ What are the differences between selling a product and a service? Selling a product is a little more transactional, Kurtis says. People need something, and they come to you because you offer it. On the other hand, selling the service sometimes requires creating the need for something. ”People don’t know they need it yet. And so you have to create that need. Now, with any given service, there’s going to be different aspects. It varies. But then you have software as a service, which is a blend or obviously a product. And so there are ways where it meshes.”
⚡ What’s more important, to work for a good manager or a good company? In the short term, Kurtis explains, it is better to work for a good manager in a bad company because if it is the opposite, a bad manager can ruin your experience. ”The problem with that is in an interview, you see everyone’s best side. So you don’t necessarily know. So I would lean — manager. However, being at a great company, things can change. Especially at a startup, no one moves in a straight line. Your manager can quickly not become your manager. So, it’s a little bit of both, unfortunately.”
⚡ Keep your skills sharp and always keep growing. From being at memoryBlue, transferring to a tech sales world, moving to LA, and changing jobs to coming back to DC and working for a family business, Kurtis never stops being curious. ”I don’t use call recording technology ’cause I’m not having those types of structured conversations as much anymore, but I read a lot, I listen to podcasts, and I try to take things from other worlds.”
Episode Highlights
Today’s Kurtis Advises Yesterday’s Kurtis
”I would go back and tell myself don’t race to get out and get hired out. Focus on your craft. Get really good at it. Make as many calls as you can because that’s going to have a longer impact than whether you get hired out in six months or seven months. Focus on making yourself better.”
The Kurtis Signature Move
”Ask a question and then wait for the answer. New people and experienced people, salespeople in general, will ask a question and then follow it up with something else and tweak it so they can get the answer they want to. But you don’t know what the client wants. I think that’s always been something I’ve excelled at is just asking questions and then listening.”
Working for the Reseller
‘‘It’s more similar to what people do at memoryBlue. It’s the early part of the sales process. It’s going out, hunting, finding opportunities, creating the need, creating the desire.”
How to Differentiate Yourself from Other Resellers
”Bring them (clients) more opportunities. If you can, be the best at staying in touch with them, creating a client salesperson relationship. Activity. Being in their face as much as possible, that’s how to get them to work with you.”
From Seeing a Ted Talk to Becoming an Employee at a Pre-Revenue Company
”The Ted talk was on healthy eating, healthy lifestyles because the stereotypes about LA are real. Everyone’s like drinking green juice and worried about their chakras and achieving being centered. Stereotypes exist for a reason. So everyone’s very conscious of that. I don’t remember exactly how I came across the video. I Google the company and see the company is hiring salespeople. At the time, I had that job with the terrible boss, and I was like, I’ll do anything to get out of here. I reached out to the recruiter, I went through the interview process, and I got the job.”
Tech Sales Versus Selling Snacks
”In tech sales, it’s how you are going to get around the gatekeeper. What you are going to say to them, get past it, get to the actual decision-maker when you want to. When you’re selling snacks, generally, the person who goes to the grocery store is also the person who answers the phone. So that part of it was great. The conversation rate versus selling software is extremely different. If you make a hundred calls, you could have 60 conversations in a day. So that part was really nice. The sale itself is similar. You’re still developing pain. You’re still creating gaps and filling gaps. You’re asking questions that probe their interests.”
Figure Out What Makes You Happy
”Just because you at start memoryBlue, or that’s your first job, you’re not like signing up for 40 years of selling. You can do things outside of that. So, figuring out what makes you happy and then either creating a role that emphasizes those things or going out and finding a role that emphasizes those things.”
Transcript:
Kurtis Michela: [00:00:00] I think listening is the most underrated superpower for salespeople and, people always joke. Bartenders are, like, half pouring alcohol, half therapist, and there’s a lot of crossover. It’s just asking questions, listening, taking it all in and figuring people out. This is a major part.
[00:01:08] Marc Gonyea: [00:01:08] Today, Kurtis Michela is in the house. It has been eight years this month since Kurtis walked the halls of memoryBlue. Since then he chased his now wife out to LA. He’s back from LA. And he’s the only alum that I know who has a corporate showroom in downtown DC, one block from the White House. Kurtis, welcome!
[00:01:09] Kurtis Michela: [00:01:09] Thank you, guys. It’s been too long since we’ve caught up without having the first Fridays. I haven’t been able to see you guys, so it’s good to chat.
[00:01:16] Chris Corcoran: [00:01:16] Well, we’ve had the first Fridays. You’ve just moved to Southern California.
[00:01:19] Kurtis Michela: [00:01:19] Well, I guess since I’ve been back, they’ve been quarantined.
[00:01:22] Chris Corcoran: [00:01:22] There you go. Well, it’s good to see you. I can’t believe it’s been so long. It seems like just yesterday.
[00:01:27] Kurtis Michela: [00:01:27] I know, closing in on a decade.
[00:01:28] Marc Gonyea: [00:01:28] All right. Well, Chris, let’s do this. I’m excited about this. What we want to do is we want to get the audience to get to know you a little bit, right? The distinguished audience, and the best way to do that is for you to, kind of, give a fairly brief summary about where did you grow up, what were you like as a kid, where’d you go to high school, where did you go to college, and then we’ll talk about, kind of, starting college, but just give us a little bit of background.
[00:01:46] Kurtis Michela: [00:01:46] Yeah, so I grew up in Rockville, Maryland. So, always in the DMV. Went to Rockville High School. And, then after that, Salisbury. During college, I lived in Ocean City every summer, so it’s definitely very formative time. After college, graduated. I think I spent maybe nine months working as a server at Gordon Biersch and then, in August, I think 2012 came to memoryBlue and…
[00:02:11] Marc Gonyea: [00:02:11] Let’s talk about for a sec. What were you like as a kid? So, it’ll give us a little bit of a high school personality. What’d you do?
[00:02:16] Kurtis Michela: [00:02:16] Yeah, I was always, been quiet and laid-back, and I still am pretty laid-back. I’ve opened up a little bit more and talk, but pretty similar overall, to my demeanor and personality now.
[00:02:28] Marc Gonyea: [00:02:28] That’s good.
[00:02:29] Chris Corcoran: [00:02:29] Very so 1:41.
[00:02:30] Kurtis Michela: [00:02:30] Yes. I fit in there, when I was out in LA.
[00:02:32] Marc Gonyea: [00:02:32] Nice. All right. And, what’d you major in Salisbury?
[00:02:35] Kurtis Michela: [00:02:35] Political Science. So, doing absolutely nothing with that. Originally, I thought I was going to go to law school, but after four years I was like, I think I’m done with school, let’s get started. And, I don’t regret it at all. One of my real good friends was a year older than me, and I will, when I was kinda on the fence of outgoing, he was miserable and his first year of law school and just said, hey, man, if you’re not like, sure, and passionate, don’t do it, because it’s hard and you’re going to hate it. And, I was like, I think he’s right.
[00:03:01] Marc Gonyea: [00:03:01] That was good advice.
[00:03:03] Chris Corcoran: [00:03:03] So, you parlayed your political science degree into the server job at Gordon Biersch?
[00:03:09] Kurtis Michela: [00:03:09] Yes. Well, I worked as early as high school. Started as a bus boy, and then have done everything in a restaurant from bar backs to bartend, waited. So, it was an easy transition, always a good way to make money. And, I think it’s where I formed some of my sales skills, in front of people.
[00:03:26] Chris Corcoran: [00:03:26] Talk more about that. Like, what skills you got as a server or bartender. What’d you learn that you took to and applied to a career in professional sales?
[00:03:34] Kurtis Michela: [00:03:34] I would say listening. I think listening is the most underrated superpower for salespeople and, people always joke. Bartenders are, like, half pouring alcohol, half therapist, and there’s a lot of crossover. It’s just asking questions, listening, taking it all in and figuring people out. This is a major part.
[00:03:56] Marc Gonyea: [00:03:56] All right. So, you were at Gordon Biersch doing your thing. How’d you find out about us?
[00:03:59] Kurtis Michela: [00:03:59] So, I found out about memoryBlue through a guy named Chris Shike who still runs in the tech world. He was a neighbor of my parents. Mr. Shike?
[00:04:10] Yes.
[00:04:11] Chris Corcoran: [00:04:11] He doesn’t run in the tech world. He gallops.
[00:04:15] Kurtis Michela: [00:04:15] That is a fact. I mean, the guy sells data storage to The Census Bureau. So, like, it’s, just, the ultimate cake. That’s the way to do it. So, yeah, he was my parents’ neighbor. Moved into a great neighborhood when he was in his mid thirties. And, I was like, what is this guy doing? He’s killing it. So, got to know him pretty well, playing golf, and he’s just, “Hey, man, like, tech sales is a great life, great way to make money. It’s fun. It’s challenging. Why don’t you check out this company called memoryBlue? They help people get started.” so I reached out to you guys, and went through the process with Tiana, with you guys. Yeah. Is she still around?
[00:04:51] Chris Corcoran: [00:04:51] She’s like a stay-at-home mom down, in Florida.
[00:04:53] Kurtis Michela: [00:04:53] Yeah, I think she had just moved to Florida when I went through the process.
[00:04:56] Marc Gonyea: [00:04:56] She was with us for a while. She’s a baller.
[00:04:58] Kurtis Michela: [00:04:58] Yeah. So, then came to you, guys, and rough, hadn’t figured it out and you molded me into what I am today.
[00:05:08] Marc Gonyea: [00:05:08] Oh, that’s not true. So, all right. So, what do you remember from when you started? So, TKO talked you into it. I remember interviewing you because I got this guy. This is interesting.
[00:05:18] Kurtis Michela: [00:05:18] So, my main memory of, and I don’t remember it, I’ve been trying to think about it all week, like leading up to this. But I think it was, I interviewed with Chris first and I thought it went well, walked away, and then did the phone interview, or role play with maybe Marc, or I don’t know if it was vice versa or what it was.
[00:05:38] Chris Corcoran: [00:05:38] That was it. That was it.
[00:05:39] Kurtis Michela: [00:05:39] And, then I came back to meet with Chris. I was like, all right. You know, the phone role-play went pretty well, and Chris was like, man, I gotta tell you, when we first met, I thought it was terrible, I wasn’t that impressed. Honestly, it was a no for me, and then Marc said it was one of the best role-plays we’ve ever had. So, I mean, I guess we got to give you a chance. And I was like, all right, this is off to a good start. Okay.
[00:06:01] Marc Gonyea: [00:06:01] That sounds about right actually.
[00:06:04] Kurtis Michela: [00:06:04] Yeah. He’s not beating around the bush. I appreciate that.
[00:06:07] Marc Gonyea: [00:06:07] There are some things that I definitely remember. And, we’ll talk about that in a second. All right. So, you started memoryBlue. What was that like from what you remember? Who was on board? Which office?
[00:06:14] Kurtis Michela: [00:06:14] Yeah, we were in the old office that was like split between downstairs and upstairs, I think. And, then we were only there for a couple of months. I think I started on my own as a one person hire, but I was a week after Matt Bright, Brittany, and
[00:06:30] Marc Gonyea: [00:06:30] Oh,
[00:06:32] Kurtis Michela: [00:06:32] Maybe Breslin or Mishler, those guys?
[00:06:35] Marc Gonyea: [00:06:35] Oh, Fish Daddy Breslin. Oh, wow that was a good group.
[00:06:39] Kurtis Michela: [00:06:39] It was all like right at the end there or into the summer.
[00:06:42] So we got started during that time. Thad was, like, pretty influential in the office. He was doing a lot of the training, jerry rigging a lot of the technology, and call recording, and all that kind of stuff.
[00:06:55] So, it certainly had, like, a startup vibe to it. None of the fancy, like, Outreach or SalesLoft that people have today. It was, I remember we would press the space bar on some random program and it would start recording.
[00:07:07] Marc Gonyea: [00:07:07] Yeah. Yeah, That’s totally right. Thank God for that is Walsh.
[00:07:12] Kurtis Michela: [00:07:12] My first account and I don’t remember the name of it, but it was some type of banking software where we would cold call banks, and it was like a backend thing, and their whole premise was, all right, banks are using Excel sheets, this is this great new software that is going to work.
[00:07:30] And, in my mind, two weeks into the job and I’m just like, this is the dumbest software, like, I’ve ever heard of no one hears about this. Everyone we called, I think the quota was two for the entire month. And I didn’t know better at the time, but I just remember my gut was like, if the quota’s two, like, that’s pretty low for an entire month, like something’s up here, like this is too hard, and they eventually dropped after a month and a half. I don’t think the company made it very long.
[00:07:54] Marc Gonyea: [00:07:54] That’s what happens. So, at some point, we brought you out on Cigital.
[00:07:59] Kurtis Michela: [00:07:59] So, Cigital was after that actually. Next was Fortinet.
[00:08:04] Marc Gonyea: [00:08:04] Fortinet?
[00:08:05] Kurtis Michela: [00:08:05] Yeah, Yeah, it was me and Matt Bright were the first two guys on Fortinet, and Nimit was our, like, our DM or manager. And, it was his first account as well. And, one of the memories always look back and laugh on. It, it was our first week on the account, and so me and Matt were Nimit’s first two, like, people that were reporting to him. And, I don’t know if he was just having a bad day, but, like, I walked over and asked him for advice and he just kind of like leaned back in his chair and put his arms over his head and was, like, man, I’m going to be honest with you.
[00:08:35] This is my first week too. Like, I have no idea. Just, go back there and figure it out. I don’t know what to tell you. And, I was like, all right, well, so we’ve got the blind leading the blind. This is going to be good.
[00:08:46] Marc Gonyea: [00:08:46] That’s like somehow, you have a sitcom. I mean, literally that’s a good, sitcom. The way you describe it, started by itself. This guy, that his Wallace was Jerry Reagan influence in the office, cause he’s the only guy that could make the IT work. You press the random baseboard and record things. But, you had some crazy client that without a business, but, I mean, Fortinet, that’s a good little lineup right there. I’ll take that into a three-game series, Bright and Kurtis, with Nimit, working out on Fortinet.
[00:09:14] Kurtis Michela: [00:09:14] Yeah, so we kicked it off and it went really well, cause I remember Chris Hendee was, like, the guy who was managing it and he was our age. Basically. He was, like, three months older than us, but he was, like, handling us, and I’m pretty sure Joe Socorro, who was the VP, was, like, dude, I don’t have time for this lead generation company. Can you deal with this? And, then we just brought it out. And, Chris was awesome. I actually met him, in person, when I went to work for Cigital. We went out to one of the trade shows out West, and like partied before that one night. This was after I was off the account, but a bunch of great guys.
[00:09:47] Marc Gonyea: [00:09:47] Nice. One big cartel. Hey, knowing what you know now, and we’ll get to Cigital, what would you have told yourself, if you go back in time, the night before you started at memoryBlue?
[00:09:58] Kurtis Michela: [00:09:58] So, I think, focus on systems, just the discipline to do stuff every day. at least when I was at memoryBlue, everyone was so focused on, just like, getting out, the light at the end of the tunnel is, and not that you want to leave memoryBlue, but the pie in the sky is, all right, you’re going to get hired out by your client.
[00:10:15] You’re going to make more money. You’re going to be earning, like living this high lifestyle. And, really most of the time your client hires you out, you make eight to ten grand more, which isn’t that significant, but. I would go back and tell myself, don’t race to get out and get hired out, focus on your craft, get really good at it, make as many calls as you can. Because that’s going to have a longer impact than whether you get hired out in six months or seven months, focus on making yourself better.
[00:10:41] Marc Gonyea: [00:10:41] Oh, man, that’s cold. Well, we could end right now, Kurtis, because, to this day, and, of course I love our SDR’s, but to this day, that’s some of the challenge, and we love the clients, but sometimes it doesn’t make sense to go work for the client, even if the client wants to hire you, but it’s hard to resist the siren, that, the temptation of going to work for the client when you may not be ready.
[00:11:03] Kurtis Michela: [00:11:03] Well, and the other thing, so I’m 31 now. And, when I started with you, guys, I think I was, like, 22 or 23. Because you come from your childhood to college, depending on the person’s maybe, anywhere from three to five years, maybe six or something.
[00:11:18] Marc Gonyea: [00:11:18] Okay.
[00:11:18] Kurtis Michela: [00:11:18] So that’s, like, the majority of your life, but you don’t really realize. People should be thinking in decades rather than thinking, like, month to month. So, if you kind of have that approach of, don’t be in such a rush, things will take care of themselves, but you don’t know that because you’re just like, I remember for me, I was just like, how can I become the VP of Sales of a tech company by the time I’m 25.
[00:11:40] I’m like, all right, how can I become Chris Shike and you don’t realize, you’re, like, actually that takes 10 to 15 years. You’re not going to do that. You’re not going to start in August, and then be, like, running a tech company by December. It’s just not possible.
[00:11:53] Chris Corcoran: [00:11:53] What you said reminded me of Tony Robbins. He has a saying, it says most people overestimate what they can do in a year, but underestimate what they can do in a decade.
[00:12:01] Kurtis Michela: [00:12:01] Yeah. I’m a big Tony fan. Love Tony. But, I mean, it’s so true, don’t get so caught up in that, race, and just focus on yourself, making yourself better, listening to what you, guys, have to say. Cause, I mean, doing it for close to 20 years now, I’m sure the formula is pretty good. But, it’s hard to tell someone that when they just start.
[00:12:19] Chris Corcoran: [00:12:19] Well, the truth be told when Marc and I started, our careers in high-tech sales, back in nineties. What we wanted to do is we wanted to prove ourselves, number one, but we wanted to get promoted as quickly as possible.
[00:12:28] Marc Gonyea: [00:12:28] It was almost pre-internet.
[00:12:30] Chris Corcoran: [00:12:30] Yeah.
[00:12:30] Marc Gonyea: [00:12:30] But not really.
[00:12:31] Chris Corcoran: [00:12:31] That’s what I was doing. I was selling the internet.
[00:12:33] Marc Gonyea: [00:12:33] He was.
[00:12:34] Chris Corcoran: [00:12:34] But we were impatient, too. Like, we wanted to get promoted as quickly as we possibly could. So, it’s not something that’s just on the young folks of today, that was Marc and me when we started our careers.
[00:12:43] Marc Gonyea: [00:12:43] It’s weird, ’cause when you’re recruiting people who are impatient, because we want people who are impatient, because a part of the trait of being a good sales professionals, you don’t want, we don’t want super patient people, but then you bring those impatient people in, and you’re like, yeah, be patient. Now that you’re here, be patient and work it out, and do this incredibly difficult job, right?
Call them, these folks, and email these folks who you’re interrupting their day, and do this for a little while. And, it’s probably the hardest thing a lot of people have done by the time they, when they start working that role.
[00:13:12] Kurtis Michela: [00:13:12] Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, memoryBlue, I don’t know about hardest, if hard is the right word, but it’s the most… tedious sounds negative. It’s not tedious, but to be great, you got to like, love the process and love the system and have that discipline to make a hundred calls. And, when you’re not making calls, prospect, build your list, get ready for the next day.
[00:13:32] You don’t know that when you get hired, you’re just like sales suite. Like, I’m going to have an expense account. I’m going to take people to Nationals games, and we’re going to hit happy hour, and I’m going to close some deals. Like, this is it.
[00:13:43] Marc Gonyea: [00:13:43] Yep. That’s not it.
[00:13:46]Chris Corcoran: [00:13:46] Being an SDR is the opposite of that.
[00:13:48] Marc Gonyea: [00:13:48] All right. So, then at some point, you’re only with us for seven months. So, at some point you worked at the Cigital, but we thought was central too, but when you were there, so you were on making these calls, doing these suits, What did you get good at? What was it, the Kurtis signature move or trait you developed?
[00:14:03] Kurtis Michela: [00:14:03] Well, Similar to, me as a kid, it’s being silent, like learning to shut up, ask a question and then wait for the answer. So many new people, I mean, new people and experienced people, salespeople in general, they’ll stack questions. They’ll ask a question, and then follow it up with something else, and tweak it, so they can get the answer they want to, but you don’t know what the client wants to, just, I think that’s always been something I’ve excelled at. It’s just like asking question and then listen. And that comes from listen to your call recordings. It’s really the only way to do it.
[00:14:33] Chris Corcoran: [00:14:33] So, I love it. Like, how you’re, naturally, a quiet person and you’re using that as such a strength, because there’s a lot of salespeople that talk way too much.
[00:14:41] Kurtis Michela: [00:14:41] Yeah, I actually think it’s like a misperception. It’s like a lot of the best salespeople I’ve worked with over the years. They’re not like Tony Robbins, for example. It’s not like somebody up there razzle-dazzle, like all these smooth lines. It’s just people that listen and people that work and they follow up they do the ugly parts.
[00:14:58] Marc Gonyea: [00:14:58] Is that teachable?
[00:14:59] Kurtis Michela: [00:14:59] Yes.
[00:15:00]Marc Gonyea: [00:15:00] That’s good because some people think, oh, why, how do I learn that?
[00:15:03] Kurtis Michela: [00:15:03] Yeah. I think so, jumping ahead, like later on, I had some roles where I would hire, train, manage people and for sure as each one is through listening to those calls, and all you need this, the light bulb to go off in someone’s head. So, just like getting them to understand that is, that’s for sure teachable.
[00:15:19] Marc Gonyea: [00:15:19] Nice. we’ll get into that, when you talk to people. All right. So, when you’re at memoryBlue, who was, like, the best person that you work with besides yourself, of course?
[00:15:27] Kurtis Michela: [00:15:27] So, when I started, Brandon Taylor was like, like the man. He was the big fish in the pond, but I remember people were like, listen to his stuff. He’s awesome. The one guy, and he actually started after me, that I was always super impressed with, and I think it’s because, it’s like, a lot of his strengths were my weaknesses, was Justin Brown.
[00:15:49] Marc Gonyea: [00:15:49] J Brown.
[00:15:50] Kurtis Michela: [00:15:50] He was such, like a bulldog, and would work hard, and make a lot of calls, and just hustle, and not take no for an answer. And, those are the things like I struggled with. I wasn’t going to come in and crush 250 calls. It’s just, wasn’t in, I didn’t wake up wanting to do that. And, I always felt like he did. I was always super impressed with him. I think, we’ve kept in touch, kind of, but he seems like he’s gone on to do great things.
[00:16:12] Marc Gonyea: [00:16:12] All right. Yeah. Both of those guys were super strong. It’d be nice if we could get Brandon Taylor to come on the podcast at some point, if he’s listening. And, then J Brown is amazing. So, those are good people to emulate their game when you’re early in. Alright, so you got rolled out in the Cigital.
[00:16:26] Kurtis Michela: [00:16:26] Yeah, so went to Cigital, and, like, a couple months in, Taylor Pierce had just gotten hired out by them. They had, Troini.
[00:16:38] Chris Corcoran: [00:16:38] Troini Myers.
[00:16:40] Kurtis Michela: [00:16:40] He was working there. And that, like, fit everything I was looking for. It was a cybersecurity company. Like, they had an interesting sell, cause it was, application security. It it wasn’t really a product. It was more of a process, like a service they offered.
[00:16:57] So, it was something that was appealing to me and, yeah, when it started going out there, a couple of days a week, and I think I fit in well with the culture, Taylor and Troi and Stuart Dross, who was the VP there. And, worked there for a couple months and then they hired me out, and I remember, everyone, you try to get out of the office, and then Maryville has such a good, like, energy, and it’s fun.
You guys have been very intentional about, like, the culture you build. So, there’s, like, everyone’s young, people, like, get along. And, I remember like my first day when I went out to, say, I had already been there, but went out there full time, they just throw us in a back room and there’s no windows, and that company sales are like the second class citizens. Because all the security guys, the VP of Security, the guy who started the company was, like, a big shot in the world.
I remember he was just walking around, and I quickly realized it was like, grass is greener. I realized I was like, ah, maybe, memoryBlue seems pretty fun right now. No one likes us here. We’re just, like, doing all this work in the basement. And where’s the glamor? Like, where’s the expense account and the champagne?
[00:17:59] So I was there. It was going really well, so started doing SDR work, and then also, like, closing some small deals. They had a certain threshold where they would just let us close them on the inside. And, so I think I was there, like, six months or so, cause I left in January, February, somewhere around there, and then, everything was going well there outside of life.
[00:18:20] One time I go to play golf, I golf a lot. I grew up playing and belong to a country club growing up, and then joined when I was out of college, on my own. And, for whatever reason, this is like 10 o’clock in the morning. We’re about to tee off, and there’s no, like, cart girl, there’s no halfway house. So, they’re like, hey, if you want drinks, get it now, because once you’re on the course, you’re not going to be able to have it. And, it was Saturday. I was 21 at the time. So, I was like, all right, I’m going to go get a drink. Should I go in there? 10 o’clock in the morning? I order a Long Island iced tea, It’s pretty, pretty aggressive for a breakfast drink.
[00:18:51] Marc Gonyea: [00:18:51] Long Island at 10:00 AM? Yeah.
[00:18:54] Kurtis Michela: [00:18:54] And this guy, like a couple of bar seats down, sitting in there by himself, he just starts laughing. He’s, like, nice order, man, I’m actually drinking the same thing.
[00:19:01] Marc Gonyea: [00:19:01] What?
[00:19:02] Chris Corcoran: [00:19:02] Game recognizes game.
[00:19:04] Kurtis Michela: [00:19:04] Yeah. We started talking and it turns out he’s the VP of Sales for Iron Bow.
[00:19:09] Of course, just as, like, fate would have it, so we talked for a little bit, exchanged information, and then, he was like, we’re not hiring right now, but, you know, I tell him what I do. He’s, we’re not hiring right now, but let’s keep in touch. Shoot me an email, maybe something will open up. So, I follow up with them, a couple months goes by, he hits me up, and he’s, hey, man, like, I’m looking for a junior person to do an outside role. Are you interested? Then I went there.
[00:19:31] Chris Corcoran: [00:19:31] Just like that.
[00:19:32] Marc Gonyea: [00:19:32] Right.
[00:19:32]Chris Corcoran: [00:19:32] And, so why did you go, be, because you wanted to go from the inside to the outside? What inspired you to make that move?
[00:19:37] Kurtis Michela: [00:19:37] Go to the outside. take another step. So, I was still doing basically lead generation that schedule, and it was more money. It was a path to the outside, path to close my own deals. And, it was also a cool role, cause, like, they would start me off without a quota, so I was, like, shadowing people, but then also closing some deals, so I could make some money. And, I actually made like pretty good money, enjoyed it. Obviously, the VP of Sales, we had similar drinking habits, so, like, you had built a great culture in the sales team, and did that for awhile and loved it.
[00:20:06] Chris Corcoran: [00:20:06] So, what were you doing for Iron Bow?
[00:20:07] Kurtis Michela: [00:20:07] So for Iron Bow, they’re a reseller, predominantly, like, their biggest relationships are Cisco and EMC. So, a lot of data storage and hardware, like routers and points, stuff in the office.
[00:20:19] Chris Corcoran: [00:20:19] Like networking and storage, it sounds. Yeah. A lot of, like, video conferencing, before Zoom took over the world, a lot of like High-end Web conferencing, conference rooms, stuff like that.
[00:20:28] Kurtis Michela: [00:20:28] So, Did that for about a year while, like, learning the ropes, but then also, great, like entry to the outside role.
[00:20:34] Chris Corcoran: [00:20:34] Was it federal commercial or a blend?
[00:20:36] Kurtis Michela: [00:20:36] Commercial. So, that was actually another example of us being second class citizens in this company. So, the commercial team there was like, the red-headed stepchild. So, their federal business does hundreds of millions, and it’s because they have a really strong relationship with the VA, and it’s a huge business revenue. They were trying to build out the commercial team, so that’s where we came in. that was
[00:21:01] Chris Corcoran: [00:21:01] And So talk a little bit about differences between two things. One is selling a product, like your EMC/Cisco products, versus a service what you were selling, the application security consulting. The differences between selling a product and a service, number one, and number two. I’m curious to also get your perspective on selling for a manufacturer or the service provider, as opposed to a reseller. If you could talk a little bit about the pros and cons of both?
[00:21:25] Kurtis Michela: [00:21:25] So, selling a product can oftentimes be a little more transactional. Typically, like there’s a hole that you’re trying to fill, and this thing will do it. So, when it’s actual hardware, typically someone builds an office and they need certain things. So, it’s a little more cut and dry about the needs, whereas selling a service, sometimes you have to create that want and that desire.
People, a lot of times you’re selling something, people don’t know they need yet. And so, you have to like create that need and create that one. Now, on any given service, there’s going to be different. roles or different people that you’re selling to. So, it varies. I find services can be a little more challenging, which I enjoy. But then you have software as a service, which is a blend of, obviously, a product. And so, there’s ways where it meshes.
[00:22:10] Chris Corcoran: [00:22:10] The second part of the question was what it’s like working for the manufacturer or the service provider versus working for a value-added reseller?
[00:22:18] Kurtis Michela: [00:22:18] Yeah. so at Iron Bow, I was the value-added reseller and what I’m doing now, I’m working for the manufacturer. I love what I’m doing now. So, the equivalent would be in that scenario, if I was Cisco or EMC. Because you’re selling to salespeople a lot of the time. So, they have their clients and their end users, and they come to you with an opportunity.
So, you’re brought in to close the deal, which can be fun. Cause you’re not doing a lot of the grueling part or the ugly side of sales, but to selling to salespeople is fun, because a lot of times they’ll listen, they’ll challenge you. They’ll push back more and it forces you to get better, it’s a different process. Selling to salespeople a lot of times it turns into a little bit of an account management role because once you have that relationship, they’re going to come to you with more opportunities, so continuing to service them.
So, instead of just selling that product, and then last time was in the software world, you’ll have a customer service team, passing it off to them, you continue to manage those relationships.
[00:23:14] Chris Corcoran: [00:23:14] So, what was it like working for the reseller and the person who had to do all the quote-unquote ugly part of sales?
[00:23:21] Kurtis Michela: [00:23:21] Yeah. I mean, it’s more similar to what people do at memoryBlue. So, it’s the early part of the sales process. It’s going out, hunting, finding opportunities, creating the need, creating the desire. And, it depends on the company you’re at. Someone like Iron Bow, a lot of times people know the name because it’s in the top right-hand corner where every time you watch a Capitals game. It’s a recognized name. Whereas, if you go to a different company, people are, like, you’re from who, you’re selling what? So, it depends really.
[00:23:50] Chris Corcoran: [00:23:50] And talk a little bit about, so if you’re working for a reseller and, so you were reselling Cisco and EMC. There’s a lot of other resellers that represent Cisco and EMC, so what would you do to try to differentiate yourself from all the other resellers that essentially was telling the customer or the prospect, the same thing you were?
[00:24:07] Kurtis Michela: [00:24:07] Bring them more opportunities. That’s really, if you can be the best at that, cause they get leads as well. Cisco is a billion dollar company, so they can bring stuff to you as well. And, it’s staying in touch with them, creating, instead of a, client-salesperson relationship.
[00:24:22] Once you approach it as like a partnership. So I would reach out to the Cisco guys, and we cold call together. there was a lot of more seasoned people. So I mentioned, I was, like, for Iron Bow, as the junior person in the role. So, I guess I was 23 or 24 at the time, whereas my counterparts were in their forties, 20 years into their career, and they had a different process, where I would hit people up and say, hey, let’s meet on Monday morning or Friday morning or something like that, and let’s crush on cold calls, and they would be hesitant.
They’re like, yeah, I mean, sure, I guess no one’s ever done that before. So, then I show up and last time, so they’d just sit there. I would make the cold calls, but we do it on speaker phone. So, I’d say, hey, I’m sitting here with Sean, from Cisco, or Mike from Cisco, and then we’d go through it. So, activity, being in their face as much as possible, that’s really how you get them to want to work with you. And, then also, for a company like that, they have some of that expense accounts, so there’s a little bit of the champagne and that type of stuff.
[00:25:13] Chris Corcoran: [00:25:13] So, what would the rep say, that the manufacturer reps, when you would show up and bring your own headset and phone and say, watch this, and you start breaking glass?
[00:25:21] Kurtis Michela: [00:25:21] They’d eat it up, because it’s different. So, people would, speechless isn’t the right word, but they would just sit back, and watch, and be like, oh, shit, like, this guy just set a meeting for me. Awesome. So, I think they’re appreciative again, is coming back to that partnership relationship.
[00:25:34] Chris Corcoran: [00:25:34] It’s the hustle.
[00:25:35] Kurtis Michela: [00:25:35] Yeah.
[00:25:36] Chris Corcoran: [00:25:36] A scarce commodity.
[00:25:37] Kurtis Michela: [00:25:37] Yeah. I mean, it really is. It’s cold calling, creating opportunities. no matter what your sales job is, there’s never a time where it’s not valuable. And, I think some of the best companies, it’s when, so I mentioned Cigital, for example, where, like, the sales people were the second class citizens.
[00:25:55] It’s when a company approaches it that says, all right, everyone’s in sales, the CEO’s in sales, the CFO is in sales. No matter what you do, if you’re the engineer, you’re in sales, like, you’re the face of the company, like, we’re all in this together. Let’s create those opportunities. That’s when great companies happen.
[00:26:12] Chris Corcoran: [00:26:12] Where have you seen that?
[00:26:14] Kurtis Michela: [00:26:14] So, one of the companies I worked for out in LA, SnackNation, actually did a great job of that, of having unintentional culture. And, that’s where everyone, they talked about it all the time, that you’re all in sales. Actually, Mark Cuban is pretty open about that. I think he wrote like an ebook, about sales and that was his whole thing. It’s the number one skill anyone can learn, no matter what their job is.
[00:26:35] Chris Corcoran: [00:26:35] Yeah, and I agree. So, you were at Iron Bow, and then I want to hear about moving to West Coast and the SnackNation, and the culture, and all those things, ’cause you were early on there. So, you were at Iron Bow and then share with us what happened from there and how you went from the East to West.
[00:26:47] Kurtis Michela: [00:26:47] Yes. Yes. So, when I started with you, guys, my goal, I was like, when I’m 25, I’ll make a hundred grand, like, that is the goal, I’ll be sitting pretty, that’s how I’ll define success for myself. So, I’m at Iron Bow. I’m, like, flirting around that number, and at that age, life’s going good.
[00:27:06] I remember, sitting, having dinner with my mom one time, and she’s a teacher. She’s like, this isn’t normal to be making this much money this young. Appreciate it. It’s not always going to be like that. And then, a couple of months later, I reconnect with a college girlfriend who had since moved out to LA to chase a career in entertainment, so she came back for the weekend, and it was one of those unhealthy relationships everyone has when they’re in their twenties, where you, like, you get drunk and you text someone, and we had broken up because I was two years older than her, so I graduated and she was going to study abroad, so that’s why we broke up.
[00:27:44] Even though we, we weren’t necessarily, we still liked each other, but we were like, hey, we’re going to be on the other side of the world, let’s not do this, but then life took us in different directions. She comes back in September. We get drunk in Baltimore, end up together, and we’re both, just ,sort of like, a Thursday night turned into a weekend together, and we’re, like, hey, still thinking about you all the time.
[00:28:02] Like, either we need to move in together, and get married or never speak to each other ever again. There’s no middle part. And, I was, like, all right, well, like, I have this great job in DC, making a lot of money, all of our friends are here, all of our families here, and she’s, well, I’m, chasing my dream out in LA, and there’s palm trees and 80 degrees everywhere, you can do sales anywhere.
And, I was, like, actually, that’s not a bad idea. So like I said, we reconnected in September and then, by the time I got to LA, West Hollywood is we were living on Thanksgiving. And, so two months my parents were like, I’m sorry, you’re doing what, to live with who? Pretty much everyone I talked to was, like, this is the dumbest thing you’re doing. It’s a terrible decision. Like, it’s not going to work out. I’ll see you in a couple of months when you move back,
[00:28:50] Chris Corcoran: [00:28:50] What are friends for?
[00:28:51] Kurtis Michela: [00:28:51] So, yeah, get to LA, and, in my mind, I was like, you know what, I can’t just show up, like, without a job, being a deadbeat, but it was only like, 45 to 60 days between deciding I was going to move and getting there. So, not a lot of time to like go through the hiring process. So, one of my buddies, my college buddies was, like, a national training manager for town park, it’s a valet company. And, so he’s like, all right, I can get you a job as a valet out in Hollywood, really famous hotel, right on Hollywood Boulevard. I was like, sure. You know, how bad it could be? So I go out there, start doing it, and then, it’s awful.
[00:29:28] Once you go from, working in, the business world where you’re very respected. Yeah, you got your, white collar on and people take you seriously. Just, some like asshole in a Lamborghini, flipping you his keys and talking down to you, you’re like, huh, so I go from making close to a hundred grand to $10 an hour.
[00:29:46] I’m like, man, what was this a good decision? So, that really lasted about three weeks. And, I was like, I have to get a job. So, then, that’s when I applied and got the first job really I went after, but it’s because I went back to an SDR role, at a company called Cornerstone On Demand. HR software, talent management, and it was appealing, because it’s named like one of the best places to work in LA, one of the best places in America. And, they have the candy dispensers, people bring their dogs to the office. it’s what you would see it’s very Google ask. So I go back to the cold calling, very similar job to memoryBlue, and I was, like, man, this is brutal, what did I do?
[00:30:24] Again, I have a first-time manager who is not as nice as a person as Nimit was. She was the type of boss who would, we’d have to have a meeting about the meeting I just had, so I could fill her in on the meeting, or I would have to send her an email about the meeting I just had, and I was, like, this is a little too hands-on for me.
So, start looking for other jobs pretty quick, and that’s when I see, actually a Ted Talk with the CEO of, at that time, a vending machine company, called Human Healthy Vending, but this guy was, just like, inspirational. He’s in his early thirties, the company’s in Culver City, and I’m, like, man, what? That’s, like, the type of guy, like, you want to be in his ship. I was like, I don’t know what they’re doing, but, like, my guts telling me to trust this guy. I moved out here, already took a pretty big risk, what’s another big risk? And then, so I go to work for them, and, like, shortly after the company pivots and become SnackNation, and it turned out to be a great decision to spend the next two years there.
[00:32:19]Chris Corcoran: [00:32:19] So, talk to the, listeners about what SnackNation does.
[00:32:22] Kurtis Michela: [00:32:22] So, SnackNation, they’ve actually pivoted again, as a company, but they sold snacking as a service. So, a lot of companies I remember, least when I worked there, you, guys, had coffee and I think, like, beer on Fridays, but you guys have snacks or anything like that in the office?
[00:32:38] Chris Corcoran: [00:32:38] Bagels.
[00:32:39] on Thursdays.
[00:32:40] Kurtis Michela: [00:32:40] That’s right. I remember bagels. So, a lot of companies will stock like nutri-grain bars or things like that. And, typically when you’re doing that, the office manager or receptionist, or somebody in HR, will have to go out to Costco and stock it up, and no one be, came to a job to become a professional grocery shopper.
So, we saw this loophole, a market opportunity, where we would call people up and just say, hey, for, 150, 250 or $300 a month, we’ll mail you guys snacks. So, it’s snacking as a service. And, they built out the business model, and it was around the same time we were right down the street from Dollar Shave Club, and so, over the last five years, those, like, the monthly subscription things are just, they’re hot. So that it took off from there, and I was, I got hired in there was five of us the same day. So, we were, like, 30 employees, 13 through 17 with, I think we had closed one deal, so basically $0 in revenue. When I left, we had around 125 people and close to 20 million ARR, so…
[00:33:37] Chris Corcoran: [00:33:37] How’d you find out about the opportunity? How’d you get plugged in there? Like you saw a Ted Talk. How do you go from seeing a Ted Talk to being employee number 13, 14, 15, or 16 or 17 at a pre-revenue company? Like, how did that all happen?
[00:33:50] Kurtis Michela: [00:33:50] So, the Ted Talk was on, like, healthy eating, healthy lifestyles. Because, in LA, like, the stereotypes about LA are real, everyone’s, like, drinking green juice and worried about their chakras, and, like, their chi being centered. Like, the stereotypes exist for a reason, so everyone’s very conscious of that. I don’t remember exactly how I sent it, or, like, how I came across the video, but I googled the company, and see that they’re in Culver City, which is, like, yeah, the equivalent to Arlington to Tysons Corner.
So, see the company’s hiring salespeople, and at the time I had that job with the terrible boss and I was, like, I’ll do anything to get out of here. it was back to a closing role as well. So, I was like, oh, let’s do it. do you apply? And, then the rest is history.
[00:34:35] Yeah. I reached out to the, recruiter, and I think anytime, normally recruiters are recruiting people. So, I think anytime someone, all the things I just told you, I included in my masters, hey, saw a Ted Talk with Sean. It seems like you, guys, have a great mission, loved to be a part of this. So, I went through the interview process, was they have pretty similar to you, guys, multi-step process, like, pretty rigorous and it was, yeah, I got the job.
[00:34:56] Marc Gonyea: [00:34:56] Kurtis, you, had this point, you had a great, your experiences were cool. Going back to the AR, SDR job at a great company, or what was supposed to be a great company, that you were at. Cigital, then us. When you’re rolling into SnackNation, how concerned were you too about the manager?
‘Cause, you know, there’s this thing, so work for a great manager or server, for a great company. Do I want both, what’s more important? And, for you, listen to you talk about your career journey, I was curious as to when you’re rolling into SnackNation. You’re, like, okay, this leader is great, but you probably didn’t work directly for him. I liked the company. what advice would you have for someone and what was your approach? Because you turned it into a boss there, too. Are you, you all were training people, talk to me about that.
[00:35:35] Kurtis Michela: [00:35:35] It’s tricky. I would lean short-term. I think it’s better to have a good manager at a bad company, cause bad manager at a good company can ruin your experience, but the problem with that is, in an interview, you see everyone’s best side, so you don’t necessarily know. And, that’s what’s actually really unique about what memoryBlue does, and I hope the listeners and the people working there take this to heart. Working with your client, you get as an SDR at memoryBlue, you get a chance to basically date the manager before marrying them. It’s unique opportunity to learn about the company. So, I would lean, manager. However, being at a great company, things can change and especially at a startup, no one moves in a straight line, career-wise. So, your manager can quickly not become your manager. So, it’s a little bit of both, unfortunately, but to the listeners and everyone there, I would say, if you have a bad manager, and you have the opportunity to avoid the job, avoid it for sure.
[00:36:34] Marc Gonyea: [00:36:34] Love it. Good stuff. So, I get on LinkedIn. I look at what you do, and you do a lot of stuff, and SnackNation, what were you doing?
[00:36:41] Kurtis Michela: [00:36:41] Yeah, a little bit of everything over the year. So, like I said, when I started, I was doing sales and was fortunate it was an overlap of great company and great manager, so Kevin Dorsey, who Marc I know you’ve met. KD?
[00:36:55] Yes. Cause, you, I think, sent me some messages you, guys, met at one of the conferences. So, we started and we were, like, selling and then, said at a, startup, no one goes in a straight line. So, we quickly realized, like, pipeline building and lead generation is the lifeblood of a sales organization. It really is. So, they quickly were like, huh? All the people that are doing really well are also really good at creating opportunities, setting meetings for themselves.
[00:37:24] So, we were, like, we need an STR team, and we didn’t have the money to go out and hire a manager. And, Kevin who is great at what he does, but he was focused on closing roles, so they came to me and were, like, hey, you were, at that company memoryBlue, would you be willing to focus on the SDR side, and start, like, training people? Start, going through like practicing process and really focusing on that side of it.
[00:37:45] And, I was just like, sure, why not? And, that’s probably the main thing I learned from there, is just say yes to stuff, either say yes for stuff, or if there’s something that you think you want to do, either just do it or definitely don’t ask for it. Just start doing it, and if it doesn’t work, you can apologize later but if you want, and someone’s not already doing it, just start doing it.
[00:38:06] Marc Gonyea: [00:38:06] That’s great. I got to give a shout out to KD because I was trying to track him down for years, and he had mentioned he hired us to do some work with my PatientPop, and I would always bring you up. That was my icebreaker all the time, so I know Kurtis does good work, and if I get Kurtis to get me a name with this guy, so I, criticized you a cocktail for that, but I’ll buy you a Long Island iced tea when I see you next, cause it was good to work with KD.
[00:38:26] Kurtis Michela: [00:38:26] When I was at SnackNation, we were in between, like, rounds of funding, and I remember we’d looked at growth projections, and we’re, like, man, we need 10 more SDR’s for what we’re going to hit for these numbers we’re going to hit, cause that’s where it was coming from. And, so I was, like, hey, let’s hit up that company memoryBlue. Like, maybe we can do what they’re doing, or get them to, like, come do that for us. the meeting did not go well. I think he was just having a bad day, cause, like, at the time I talked to him, he was great. At the time he went to the media, wasn’t great. So, what was it like working at such a fast paced, fast growth company?
[00:38:57] you really become, like, entrenched in it. It takes over your life. And, that was a cool com. It was very similar to memoryBlue. I mean, the, CEO was 34 and he was, like, one of the oldest guys at the company. So, you have 80 people in their twenties, with dogs in the office, and, like it’s a fun environment.
[00:39:14] So, you spend a lot of time there, they become your friends, but, workwise, I learned so much and my, number one suggestion to anybody is, if you get the chance to work at, like, a true startup, with between 10 and 20 people, or, like, company that’s still figuring itself out, do it, because there’s just parts of the business that you don’t even think about.
[00:39:32] You get hired to be a sales guy, you’re focused on sales, but then, on that type of stuff, then it’s like, all right, we learn about the production side, we learn about the marketing side, the account management side, and you’re just, like, trying to figure stuff out.
[00:39:43] Chris Corcoran: [00:39:43] What about, in terms of what you were selling, so you went to sell technology and then now you’re selling snacks?
[00:39:49] Kurtis Michela: [00:39:49] Oh, yeah. I mean, my, friends at home made fun of me so much. They were, like, you’re selling snacks now. Like, what, what are you saying? And, I remember my dad was just, like, sweet, so you left Maryland at Iron Bow, making good money to go sell snacks with some girl I’ve never met before. Awesome. It’s good to see you’re making great life decisions.
[00:40:08] Chris Corcoran: [00:40:08] What was it like, in terms of selling something different? it’s still a solution, right? You’re still calling into these companies. You’re doing business to business. You’re identifying challenges. You’re giving an innovative, you’re very evangelical in the approach, it’s not Bits and Bites in technology, so talk a little bit about that.
[00:40:24] Kurtis Michela: [00:40:24] So, this is the great part. in tech sales, it’s how are you going to get around the gatekeeper? What are you going to say to them to get past it, get to the actual decision maker? when you’re selling snacks, generally the person who, like, goes to the grocery store is also the person who answers the phone, so that part of it was great. The conversation rate versus selling software is extremely different. If you make a hundred calls, I mean, you could have 60 conversations in a day, because they wouldn’t all be, like, super in-depth, but you’d be, like, oh, who handles managing the office, or company culture, or stuff like that, and generally the receptionist’s oh, I handle that though. I buy the coffee, I buy, the toiletries or whatever. So, that part was really nice. But, the sale itself is similar. You’re still developing pain. You’re still, like, creating gaps and filling gaps. You’re asking questions that probe their interests.
[00:41:15] And, similar to memoryBlue, like, we had a script, we had a process. You had certain who, what, where, when, why, how, like you want to ask all of those same questions, so the fundamentals and, like, the process of sales is the same.
[00:41:29] Chris Corcoran: [00:41:29] Great. And, so how long were you at SnackNation?
[00:41:31] Kurtis Michela: [00:41:31] I think around two years, actually I have my LinkedIn up. I don’t know the exact dates. It blends together.
[00:41:38] Yeah, One year, 11 months assess. so yeah, left there because, as I’ve learned in, so Kevin and I were close, he was the VP of Sales, and in startups, there’s, companies as a whole, there’s, a lot of times, there’s a belief that the skill set it takes to run a sales team to go from zero to 20 million, is not the same skillset that it takes to go from 20 million to 50 million, or 20 million to a hundred million. Because, at that point you’re approaching, like, an enterprise level. You’re managing, like, a larger range of people.
[00:42:12] So, the VC funds or the investors believe it’s different. So, they brought in someone else to run the sales team. At the time it was, like, quote-unquote, with Kevin, but it turned out to be, like, people tell you what they think you want to hear, kind of thing. So, the culture quickly changed.
[00:42:29] And, I was just like, all right, like, I think I’ve run my course here. Two years at a startup is, it’s a long time, unless you’re, like, the person running the company or it’s your company. And, so I wanted to go do something, like, similar, like the same process. So, yeah, I ended up leaving because of that, and shortly after, Kevin left and then a lot of the, like, core people left. There was a little bit of an exodus where, I would say like, between both before and after I left, 10 to 15 people on sales team all dipped out.
[00:42:58] Chris Corcoran: [00:42:58] So, where’d you go?
[00:42:59] Kurtis Michela: [00:42:59] From there, I went to a company called PatSnap. So going back into the software world, and it was nice and it was refreshing, because, at that point, I think I either had gotten engaged, or it was, like, we had been dating for a couple of years, and I was, like, all right, we’re getting engaged.
[00:43:11] This is, so that’s when, you feel like, all right, I’m a grown up now. Like, I need to start. It’s not about, cause the trade-off of SnackNation, I love working there, but you’re not making much money, so then I was like, all right, where can I go to get back in, like, an enterprise sales type environment?
[00:43:24] So, PatSnap was a patent searching software, and it was a great kind of startup, because the LA office was truly a startup. They had just, within the first year, but they’re a Sequoia backed company. And, in their London headquarters, they have a hundred people. So, you have the culture and the atmosphere of a startup, but, you know, you’re not going to go out of business at any point, because there’s a machine over on the other side of the Atlantic, making sure all this happens.
So, from there, I, got back into, more of a closing role, having those, like, higher level conversations. So, that’s not, like, actually you talk to people. You’re, like, well, do people like snacks? Do people like having a great culture? It’s a quick transactional sale.
[00:44:08] Our sales cycle was anywhere from, like, 10 to 14 days, and then going back to enterprise, then you’re in, like, a three to six month process. And, it was a culture shock for me, going to a different company or going back to I’ll call it a grownup company, where, like, people tuck in their shirts, and send emails where they’re, like, hope you are well, and emails with that type of stuff.
And yeah, I ended up being there for, maybe around a year, perhaps a little less. almost a year, as again. So, around that time, we were planning our wedding. Kelly, now, my wife was working in the entertainment industry, just become burnt out on it. It’s a grind of a business, probably worse than sales. And, we were missing family, missing home, and decided to move back. And, then, that’s, like, eventually why I left there and transitioned into my family business, which is what I’m doing now – selling office furniture.
[00:44:59] Marc Gonyea: [00:44:59] Let’s talk about that for a sec, ’cause I remember when you were interviewed, part of what appealed to me was, I remembered it when we talked, and we had to talk to them a long time. And, so yesterday, I know I’ve been out, LinkedIn messages are now there, and I hear a bunch of kids at grade five. Tell us a little bit of your dad’s business, cause you brought it up in the interview, and I was, like, oh, this guy’s going to be good because, he’s, when he’s around someone who’s got his own thing going from a young age. And, funny enough, you go to LA, you get all these wonderful experiences and sales, some operations growth, and now you’re back in DC, working in family businesses, is that what you call?
[00:45:31] Kurtis Michela: [00:45:31] Yeah, we have four people that work for us and, like, DC, Maryland, and Virginia area. And, I’m so glad that I didn’t come work directly for him out of college.
[00:45:42] At the time he was like, you don’t want to do this, go do something else. My mom was mad at him. She was, like, you have this great business, bring him in. But, I’m glad he didn’t, ’cause, like, it forced me to learn on my own, like, kinda, become my own business person and, like, figure stuff out. Rather than just doing everything his way. So, now when we work together, I see stuff he’s doing, and I’m like, why are you doing that?
Or, he’ll see stuff you should do this, and I’m like, well, actually, no, and here’s why. So, it forced me to like grow as a person, but yeah. So now the easiest way to think about what we do, is we outsource a sales team to factories. So, we work with 10 different factories predominantly. Actually, yeah, they’re all in United States or Canada.
[00:46:22] And, for them, rather than hiring direct salespeople, we just signed a contract and say, all right, we’re going to manage DC, Maryland, and Virginia for you, like, to promote the brand, close business, manage existing customers, help with the actual execution of projects. It’s, as me back in the outside sales role, which I love, because, as I’ve kind of learned, like, the monotonous, like sitting down at a desk at seven 30 and cranking out however many calls, like, just doesn’t work for my personality.
[00:46:50] Do I think there are people who like excel at it? And, I’d rather have something that’s slightly different every day. Being able to interact with people face-to-face. it’s perfect. It’s been wonderful.
[00:46:59] Marc Gonyea: [00:46:59] Of your body of work, before working, coming back and getting into the family business? What do you think, prepared you the most for it? Was there a role or is there an experience?
[00:47:07] Kurtis Michela: [00:47:07] Yeah. So, a little bit of everything. I mean, the work I did at an Iron Bow. So now I’m just, like, flip-flopped. So before I was the retailer, now I’m in the factory. So, understanding that side of it, understanding, like, all right, when I was the reseller, what did I want from a factory person?
And, then at SnackNation, it was a lot of standing in front of people, educating people. That’s really presenting on a face-to-face level. So, took a little bit of everything and then, you know, what I learned? So, one of the things we’re doing now, or I’ve been doing over the last two years, is like modernizing the business, bringing in like, implementing Salesforce, and, like, showing our people what Drift is, and getting them rather just, like, taking an Excel sheet full of phone numbers, like, putting it on the cloud so we can all use it together. And, like, just modernizing the business really.
[00:47:53] Marc Gonyea: [00:47:53] You’ve had a great path. when you look back or you hit on it earlier, but when you look back on your colleagues, either at memoryBlue, but also at these tech companies, you live in a great place, and if you work hard and play your cards, right, this is something you could do, and you and Kelly have little Kurtises.
You can turn this over to them one day, maybe, so, I mean, this is going to be great. When you look back at what you’ve done and what your peers are doing now, what are some of the mistakes? What are some of the things you think that people listening should avoid as they make these criticisms, as they go?
[00:48:20] Kurtis Michela: [00:48:20] The thing we mentioned earlier about, like, thinking, trying to come out on a macro level, and thinking in decades rather than months. Figuring out, like, what makes you happy? Like, as a personal level, just because you start at memoryBlue or that’s your first job, you’re not, like, signed up for 40 years of selling. There’s plenty of things you can transition to. So, for example, like I took online classes to become a Salesforce administrator, like, I never did it, but I learned the process. Like, I took data analysis classes. you can go do things outside of that. So, figuring out what makes you happy and then either creating a role, that emphasizes those things or going out and finding a role that emphasizes those things. And, I mean, I’m fortunate and grateful that I have the opportunity to do this business, but now I’m able to tweak what I do and tweak my day to the things I like to do as long as they’re productive.
[00:49:14] Marc Gonyea: [00:49:14] You talked about it and you referred to it. Sounds like you’re listening to things and you’re reading things, how are you going to keep your skills sharp now though? Cause now you’re working for yourself, right?
[00:49:23] And, you and your father, and you’ve got these employees to be responsible for, and your customers. So, before you were always working for someone. Now you’re working for yourself, so how are you going to keep your skills sharp? And, what advice would you have to everyone else out there to keep their skills sharp and always keep growing?
[00:49:36] Kurtis Michela: [00:49:36] That’s my biggest challenge now. I don’t use any, kind of, like, call recording technology, cause I’m not having those types of, like, structured conversations as much anymore. So, I read a lot, I listen to podcasts. I try to take things from, like, other worlds. I think it was, I don’t remember where I learned the term, but I want to say it’s Malcolm Gladwell or someone has this term of idea sex.
[00:49:58] So, whether you, like, take something from a completely different industry and implement it into your own life, just, like, trying stuff out, but also going to networking events because I do basically work on an island essentially. So, I reach out to my competitors all the time, and I’m just, like, hey, let’s grab coffee. Try to pick their brains, do it subtly. I reach out to my customers or like more experienced people in the industry, and just, like, learning, always being a student, and coming back to that original point, listening. you, kinda, have to create ways to get better.
[00:50:27] Marc Gonyea: [00:50:27] All right. That’s a good note to end it on. I think.
[00:50:29] Chris Corcoran: [00:50:29] That’s a walk-off right there.
[00:50:31] Marc Gonyea: [00:50:31] Well, Kurtis, thank you for joining us.
[00:50:34] Kurtis Michela: [00:50:34] I have a quick question for you, guys. I remember when I was there, the big thing was, like, hiring former athletes, I always found there was like a similar mindset, and, like, commitment that made them good salespeople. Are you still doing that or what do you look for when you’re hiring people?
[00:50:48] Chris Corcoran: [00:50:48] So, we definitely like athletes. We also love servers. We do love servers for the reasons that you express. Essentially what we’re looking for is someone who has a history of outpacing the pack, in one or more areas of their life, whether that be academically, whether that be athletically, whether that be extracurricularly. We’re looking for people who can grind. We’re looking for people who can run into some adversity and not quit.
[00:51:12] Kurtis Michela: [00:51:12] So, the reason I ask, one of the things we stumbled into at SnackNation, and it was part of it is cause you’re in LA, everyone has a reel and like a headshot in LA.
[00:51:21] Drama kids and, like, people with experience acting and singing, probably the most on, about gifted, but the, like the, just the best presenter I ever met was guy named Sean Gentry. And, I think he’s, like, doing something in Outreach now. He was, like, an, acting major in college, but he had a legit, like, eight to ten minute reel. I watched one time of this, he was, like, a very good actor and it transitioned so well because he was used to repeating the same words over and over again.
[00:51:49] He was used to speaking. He was so good at fluctuating his tone and going up or going down at the end of the sentences. And, I was, like, wow, this is, I was, like, we stumbled into something. Let’s go get a bunch of actors.
[00:52:01] Marc Gonyea: [00:52:01] Plus, that world’s very competitive.
[00:52:03] They’re used to rejection. It’s competitive. You need to be on, somebody who’s always coming for your spot. Agreed.
[00:52:09] Chris Corcoran: [00:52:09] And, you’re acting, you’re playing a role. Your whole identity isn’t wrapped up into it, where you could just be, all right, I’m going to go play sales professional from, the next eight hours. And, then I’m going to go live my life. And, being able to detach your identity from your role is critically important.
[00:52:25]
[00:52:25] Marc Gonyea: [00:52:25] So, what I’m hearing is, you’re, you want to move back out to LA and open up an office for memoryBlue after you sell the furniture business to your next of
[00:52:33] Kurtis Michela: [00:52:33] With everything I’m seeing online. You’re next. All of this has to be in Miami, right?
[00:52:38] Marc Gonyea: [00:52:38] Yeah. We’ll see.
[00:52:40] Kurtis Michela: [00:52:40] That’s where the extra, this is going.
[00:52:42] Marc Gonyea: [00:52:42] all the VC guys are going to Miami. This, the mayor, for instance, whereas is a sales person himself, but I don’t know if any, the companies are going. We’ll see, we’ll wait five years Cool.
[00:52:51] Chris Corcoran: [00:52:51] Well, Kurtis, thank you so much for your time. It was awesome catching up with you.
[00:52:55] Kurtis Michela: [00:52:55] Yes, it was good chatting with you, guys, too. Hopefully we’ll see each other in person sooner than later. And, hit me up if you need some air purifiers. We got to keep those people happy and healthy.
[00:53:06] Marc Gonyea: [00:53:06] You got it, brother. All right Kurtis Peace out, man.
[00:53:09]